Devil was 87. The general playing in 88 was not memorable - I liked the opening 2 shows, and the China doll later on - but, unlike other MSG runs, no show was particularly full of hot x-factor. Victim-Foolish was in its infancy and worked out there a few times, otherwise what were the highlights? breakouts? It's just a certain "level" of cohesion that was not hit, regardless of nice playing moments....
Apparently, in the early days of the song, the band got a big kick out of playing 'Victim or the Crime' after a big dance number, and watch the crowd just stand there, dumbfounded.
I saw maybe 10 shows Spring 88, and all were great except for one night Worcester. I saw another 10 or so that summer. Maybe I was jaded because I was drugged to the gills and in love, but I loved those shows. I saw only a few that Fall, and I think they were just tired.
Think I attended 4 of the 9 nights. One of these days I'll locate the old Stubs. Definitely did not go the last night w/ Suzanne Vega, Hall & Oates, Mick Taylor, Jack Casady et al (9-24-88) but definitely went 9-23-88. 9-14 & 9-18 seem likely, looking at the setlists.
Whatever nights I went, I brought a grocery sack full of Habañero peppers to Miracle before and during the Shows. They were actually a Carribean variant, slightly milder and more flavorful compared to the typical variety.
'...would a person gleefully be handing out habaneros, and the recipients would gleefully be eating..."
The most awesome part of all that was that you could actually get away with it, back then. MSG security had no problems with bringing in a half-sack of Hot Peppers.
I did actually witness some Habañeros wind up on stage. There were puzzled glances from Band Members, liek; "Balloons are somewhat Normal, but what have we here ??"
The Funniest thing was people coming up later, saying "Have you any more of Them ??"
They actually were quite luscious, and plucked Fresh from my Farm. There were Red ones, Green, Gold, and a few Purples.
They just never achieved lift-off at that run. The Spring and Summer shows had several good moments, and the Capital Centre and Spectrum shows before these were solid. There was just nothing terribly innovative, which was surprising given the extended residency. I've got master audience tapes of most of these shows but seldomly listen to them.
Stu, I remember getting a habanero pepper during those shows. Crazy to think that our paths crossed way back when. Just goes to show, you give someone a hot pepper, and 25 years later they give you a ride to the airport on the other side of the continent. Small world.
88 was the calm before the 89 storm. SPAC in the summer of 88, as well as a few of those MSG shows were a blast, but 89 was smoking from start to finish.
To Lay Me Down actually. I love that show as well. The first one I took my younger brother to. Last Ballad of a Thin Man & a rockin' Deal to close set I. Second set was pretty standard as far as the setlist, but very well played.
In my memory Fall '88 was the epitome of boilerplate set lists. Quick, not much (any) improve in/out of drums/space. The addition of the GDTRFB>Miracle>Fantasy>Jude (debuted at Kaiser March '88) to the rotation sealed that 3 night rotation. I remember looking at the set lists from the southern fall tour and it was all just retreads.
That said, there were exceptions. Oxford Plains Speedway was a BIG exception. Those shows ripped and dripped.
Not only is it scorching all the way through and one of the best of the year, it's got the debut of Believe it or Not...one of the most emotional debuts Jerry Garcia ever performed.
>>>>>Says the guy who went to what? 2 shows that year? One show? And has listened to what? 4 shows from that year? 2 shows? Just curious.
I attended 4 shows that year - the two in my local area and two in Oakland. - difficult to travel further w/ two young kids.
I have, however, listened to about 30 or so out of 80.
Not saying there were no good shows that year - Oxford stands out, but not a lot else that I can think of at the moment. Of the ones I attended, Autzen was the best, and a fun show, but not one of the greats.
"Someone" was quoted as saying that the Drums in 88 "sounded like a washing machine full of bowling balls". Maybe it was tennis balls? Anyway, a bit of an exaggeration, but the RDs were having some problems that year playing in synch, which is probably one of the main reasons, IMO, why the band sounded kind of flat.
All in all, I found 1988 lacking in something that was there in 87, and there in spades in 89.
Yes, maybe if I had listened to more shows my opinion might be different, but I doubt it.
Oxford was Huge Fun in many ways. Besides some awesome music, the sheer Novelty of being out on a huge field in the Maine Summer was something.
In comparison when there are 5 or 7 or 9 nights at MSG it all becomes a blur, except if there is a Branford appearance or maybe Hall & Oates.
My sister was living in Fryeburg, Maine back then so we took the back roads and avoided traffic. Definitely my favorite outdoor East Coast shows, although I attended great ones at RFK & JFK.
I'm not like you, Felina - I can't remember every show I was at or listened to. At this point a lot of them blend together - dwindling number of brain cells ya know. I know you've been and listened to many more shows than I have.
But those you mentioned sound familiar, and some of them may be better than 9/18. There may be a few others. I'd have to relisten. It may be that 9/18 is the best post-coma show, but I'm pretty sure there are others in 89 or 90 that I experienced as "better".
It was your certainty I was lolling at, not the quality of the show.
>>>t may be that 9/18 is the best post-coma show, but I'm pretty sure there are others in 89 or 90 that I experienced as "better".
Problem is that you may have experienced some shows in 89 or 90 that you thought were better but in your case, you really gotta judge by the tapes...unless you were also at 9/18/87.
Otherwise that 'experience' gets in the way and has a bias. The bias of whatever show I was at was better than whatever show I wasn't at. We can refer to it as the Bucky Bias since he's defined it pretty well over the years. Trust me...he's not alone by a long shot, there are way more of those people than less of them. I guess it's human nature.
As to the shows I mentioned: my bet is that if you are talking about the Miami Sound Machine show with the great D Star (10/26/89) or the first Branford show (3/29/90) at Brenden Byrbe or Bob's Brenden Byrne Birthday show (10/16/89) that some people know from the official release 'Nightfall of Diamonds' or the 2nd Warlocks show at Hampton (10/9/89) with the D Star breakout.... which may help place those I shows I mentioned in your mind better than just the dates...what those shows, as examples don't' have over what MSG 9/18 does have is the 'complete' aspect thing...the complete show. Meaning first set, second set plus encore.
When you use that measurement for a show and that's really the only measurement you can use when talking about the best in terms of shows...it's my opinion 9/18 tops all those mentioned in that list. Gotta have a perfect first, perfect second and a perfect encore helps too. We aren't talking favourites lists here...we're talking best lists.
I think the only show I can think of off top of my head is the 3/27/88 Hampton with the Ballad of a Thin Man and the To Lay breakout in the first set and So What Jam into the Sugar>Scarlet>Fire as being one that someone could argue as being in the running for best post coma show possibly...this is subjective after all.
I get that you're less into these kinds of specifics but that's what goes into it when comparing this stuff---specifics. In truth, I'm not into best show lists and definitely not into comparing different shows from different eras but that post coma era is really the only one that lends itself to having a best show, at least in my opinion and that's why I mentioned it when arguing about the merits of 1988. All the other eras don't really have a best show that stands above all the others.
Hope you're doing well and that you had a good summer.
9/18/87 is a monumental show but 1st night alpine 89 is better. I would also say that 10/16/89, 10/26/89, 7/12/90 (RFK) and 6/17/91 are better too. 10/9/89 is an amazing show for the experience it was (I was there) but I don't think the band is actually playing as well as they did later in the tour (I did not those other fall 89 shows)
First night at Alpine (7/17/89) first set gets killed by the first set at MSG in terms of tightness, in terms of precision. The second set is fantastic but also gets beat by MSG in terms of raw power, especially in the post space. 10/16/89 first set maybe beats MSG 87 first set cause of the Grow>Deal to close and the monumental Mobile (despite having a Picasso Moon in it) but the second set doesn't hold a candle to MSG 87. It just doesn't--even with the D Star and Attics (and I will Take You Home). Just listen and compare.
10/26/89 Miami also doesn't have a fantastic first set. Also...when you compare the post space of Miami 89 (which isn't that great) to the post space of MSG (which is biblical), the contrast is clear.
7/12/90 RFK is just not that tight all the way through in my opinion. You may have had a great time at that show but it's not even in the same universe as MSG 87.
6/17/91 Giants is cool and all with the D Star jams Bruce and company are playing throughout but it's first set isn't better (although I'll give you that the Eyes is a better opener than the Bucket) and the post space is also not in the same galaxy as MSG 87 post space.
Felina.....how are you Bro. I have not seen you post much on the new zone but having said that I have had a few hiatuses myself. I guess the question of 88 motivated you to post. Reminds a of a thread where I asserted that that 88 was one of the weaker years. That was on the old zone I guess 4 years ago? I must admit that I did not see a whole lotta shows in 88. You gave me a few discs when we first met at TXR to turn my 88 frown upside down. Oxford was one of them. Incredible quality and I believe you referred to it as a "matrix" recording? I think you also gave me Philly? Great stuff.
87 was a great year both spring and Fall. One of my favorites. I have always thought that after 87, 88 was a step down. 87 had hot first sets although a wee bit short. Well played second sets but short on psychedelia and space. These factors contributing to some labeling 87 as Dead Lite. One undeniable fact of 87 was the enthusiasm of Jerry stepping up, belly to mike, and belting away vocally. Jerry also seemed to have stepped up and with great motivation ripping up his own little ditties turning them upside down and inside out.
This one's just to Franklin Page...no one else will have the slightest interest in reading further.
I mixed stuff up in my brain when I was taking about 7/12/90 RFK...was thinking about another show...my bad. The dates are getting jumbled as the years progress.
It came to me that I was thinking 89 at that place and not the famous 90 show, which rules...so I looked up that show to remind myself of the specifics, having not been there, and when comparing that to MSG--it's close. For me, I don't think the first set is as tight--it's fatter and juicer for sure and much longer to boot but just not as tight and beautiful...nothing like the Sugaree and Bridsong at MSG is at RFK but instead RFK has the monster Cassidy and Jed and Music--so that's a toss up. And I'm not gonna say you're wrong if you think the RFK set one is better cause I think that's a justifiable opinion.
As far as the second set and the pre-drums, I think RFK with that epic D Star beats MSG with the monster Shakedown>Women>Terrapin. However, even though there is FIRE in the RFK post space, it's not on the same level as the FIRE for the post space at MSG, and it's really not even close. And that's where the MSG show beats the RFK show, at least to my ears.
Plus the MSG encore of best ever Heaven's Door sodomizes the RFK encore of The Weight in terms of how they are played.
So apologies for mixing up 7/12 with another RFK show. I think it's because I thought that release of 7/12/89 RFK for one of those 'At the Movies' things was going to be 7/12/90 up until the first song seeing it with my buddies and realized I was mixing those two shows together...and consequently, those two shows now get jumbled up in my frontal lobe I think.
>>>So what was the best pre-coma - post Keith and Donna show? 79 to 86?
There are a lot and there isn't a clear cut winner in my mind. Way more complete show candidates that the post coma years, that's for sure. The shows you mentioned are famous and for good reason but mostly cause of their second sets and Titanic versions of special songs like the Other One at Cape Cod 79 for example. When you're talking about best shows from that era, you have to look at both first and second sets--shows like Augusta 10/12/84 as one example, which have spectacular first sets and spectacular second sets (plus special encores don't hurt). Apologies for the redundancies.
I don't think of comparing best shows from those years though, to tell you the truth, just cause 79 is so vastly different than 85. So that 9/6/80 Maine show you mentioned, which is a great one from start to finish, is so vastly different from say 6/28/85 Hershey Park, which is also great from start to finish. They were such a different band by then, mostly due to Garcia and how much he had changed during that period, but not just that.
And also...I don't really get into picking best shows...cause that stuff is technical stuff in a way, where you really have to look at all the songs and a disaster song here or there takes that show out of the running if you are putting it in front of god, for example.
I much prefer thinking about favorite shows. A great example is the show that took place on the Veneta Fairgrounds in 1972. That one might just be the most special show to me, might just be my favorite single show if I had to pick one at gun point, which is the only situation where I'd do something like that. But that show isn't the best show ever, not by a long shot. It just has some of the most special moments ever...moments that opened up space time continuums and introduced that audience to a 4th dimension, for sometimes minutes on end! Starting with the opening notes of China Cat and going from there. That stuff is way more interesting to talk about cause that's what that band was about, right? They weren't about great shows, perfect sets, etc..there are other artists that are truly great and are about that but the GD were about creating stuff out of thin air that changed us in those moments and were recorded and now live in people like us and will for a long time. What they created, those seconds of magic--those seconds are what that band is about to me. And there were an awful lot of them. Garcia just had so much in him--it's staggering when you think about it.
So I don't get into best shows ever cause, to me, it's counter to what that band was all about. They DID have TONS of great shows from start to finish and those shows were certainly more common in 1979 and 1980 than in 1985, but that wasn't what that band was in the end at least to my mind, so it's kind of a counterintuitive topic, if that makes any sense at all.
Apologies for all these long winded rants! I gotta assume only a very small % of people are reading them and I gotta make up for the neglect I've been responsible for regarding this place too.
>>>Felina.....how are you Bro. I have not seen you post much on the new zone but having said that I have had a few hiatuses myself. I guess the question of 88 motivated you to post.
What up KK! Hope you are good my man.
Yeah, I haven't been coming around much at all and just happend to stop in today and see a few topics I wanted to chime in about.
>>> Reminds a of a thread where I asserted that that 88 was one of the weaker years. That was on the old zone I guess 4 years ago? I must admit that I did not see a whole lotta shows in 88.
That's how it goes I think. For example, if it was the other way around and you saw a bunch of shows in 88 and not many in '87, I think you'd dig 88 much more than '87.
I gotta run but love ya man...be well and rock on!
I saw 25 in '87 and 24 in '88 so I had a pretty good grasp of both years, '87 had far more energy and consistency.
9/20/88 was a good show from that run, but they were spent by the end of that tour before then even hit the Garden. Both the Cap Centre and the Spectrum runs were very good.
You may have been spent before they hit MSG Thom, but the GD weren’t, at least not to my eyes and ears. 9/18/88 proves that much. I do think ’87 has this ‘edge’ to it, a newfound Garcia enthusiasm that changed into something else by the time '88 rolled around, a different kind of energy. Each year is kind of distinct in that and other ways but in terms of consistency, if you lined up every tape, I don’t think ’87 would show itself as more consistent in terms of play when compared to '88.
One distinction for '88 was was Believe it or Not. I was fortunate enough to see 4 of them in short order and that was pretty special for someone like me who cherishes Garcia's ballads. I also saw some great stuff in 87 and I meant it when I said I could argue for either one of those years. To me, they were both good years leading into more good years before Brent went.
By the time '89 rolled around, the presence of Brent's new songs was in full swing and it seemed to genuinely energize Garcia as a musician more than anything else could, and they went full steam ahead with Brent holding his own with his songs that Garcia seemed to really love playing...a whole new spark of sorts.
With his passing, they lost that and it's my opinion it took it's toll, musically speaking, on Garcia more than anyone else in that band. I know there are plenty of heads who didn't care for Brent's growing influence but to me, I thought it was pretty obvious the most important person did care and cared a lot.
'88 was the start of that, the start of what would build and build before, sadly, it all came down in the summer of '90.
No, the fact you didn't attend MSG and Alpine makes you more biased according to the 'Bucky Bias.' And apologies to Bucky, who I have no problem with and whom I like. I've always thought he and Key were good people, despite their dislike of treasures like Stella Blue.
It's similar to the 'confirmation bias' where we pay attention to things that confirm what we think and disregard information that goes against what we think, heads have a tendency to downplay the shows they missed (to not pay attention to them) for probably a whole bunch of reasons--maybe the biggest being that it makes them feel better about the fact they missed them.
So if you had been to Alpine for example, and seen that 6/23 set two, there is a distinct possibility that you would not have said it 'fell flat.' We'll never know but that's the bias I'm talking about.
Doesn't mean Oxford wasn't great, cause it was, and it doesn't mean every show at Alpine was good cause that first one was a clunker, it just means we seem to want to see the positives of the shows we saw and the negatives of the shows we didn't see, as a whole.
I tend to do the exact opposite for reasons I'm not aware of. No idea what you tend to do, but I'm sure you know plenty of folks who have shown this bias plenty.
Hit me with your address if you want a fantastic FM of that Alpine set I'm talking about.
Since I didn't attend MSG '87 or '88 (or any MSG shows), then I'm very qualified to rate them in an unbiased fashion.
My "fell flat" comment was essentially saying that the one year they did 4 shows at Alpine, and 9 at MSG, they were arguably inferior to other years at the same venue. (I attended Alpine in 1986, which is hands down the worst of the lot, so no bias there :) )
Living in Manhattan for most of my life (& feeling fortunate 2 have this opportunity) I caught all of the 87, 88 & 89 MSG shows. I don't see all that much difference between the GD performance during these three years. In each of these years (& throughout the entire 30 years of performances), some shoes were better then others. The 9/23/88 Victim > Foolish Heart was all there then some, especially Phil's contribution during Victim. I grok that many don't care for that song, but the energy during this portion of the shoe was palpable. I agree that by the second half of the 88 MSG run, Jerry's vocal chords were strained, but the instrumental chops were fine.
Best pre-coma post-Godchaux is a very very difficult pick. There are so many fantastic shows of similar caliber and set lists were not as diverse as they became later.
2 shows with Dark Star, 3 with St. Stephen... all of them great but not necessarily the best.
I'm just going to say that it's 9/12/81 with 7/13/84 runner up
"You may have been spent before they hit MSG Thom"
Nope, saw most of the MSG run as well, just don't remember being blown away by much on the run. The benefit was downright dismal.
I was actually front row for 9/18, no Scarlet jam to speak of (less than three minutes) and while it was nice seeing NFA open the set they didn't stretch it our at all. Women are Smarter was longer than The Other One. I like my shows with a bit more improvisation and it really wasn't there that night. To each his own.
They had definitely run out of steam by then...I will absolutely give you that.
I hear you on the impov thing, but the energy of that night (9/18) is what I took away.
I was 18, second time in NYC and MSG and had only seen 60 or so shows by then so I was probably more excited at Weir running from mic to mic (Garcia's/Lesh's) whipping that place into a frenzy on that T Stones than you.
I saw all of 88 except the California shows and half of the MSG run. Scratch that, saw the New Years run. Point is I liked most of 88, oxford, warlocks, miami come to mind. I think the issue with MSG was how many shows. I was burnt and I imagine the band was too. You know when people say go to a happy place? I sometimes think of staring at that ultralight flying around OPSpeedway during a sick Crazy->Playin->Uncle Johns. The dust kicked up by dancers in the setting sun. Smell of stir fry and ganj in the air. ahhh relaxing even as I type.
Though a better 89 DS happened 10 days later in a place many NY's go after they retire.
Beginning with the Warlocks shoes, the 1989 fall tour had a renewed energy.
Yes, while the 88 Rainforest benefit show was somewhat lacking, seeing Jerry join with Mick Taylor for two tunes provided for a heady guitar mix. I also enjoyed the Suzanne Vega portion of the shoe, but to each his or her own.
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 13, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 14, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 16, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 17, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 16, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 17, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 18, 1988
The Omni - March 24, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 27, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 28, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - March 30, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - March 31, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - April 1, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 3, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 4, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 5, 1988
The Centrum - April 7, 1988
The Centrum - April 8, 1988
The Centrum - April 9, 1988
Joe Louis Arena - April 11, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 13, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 14, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 15, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 22, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 23, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 24, 1988
Frost Amphitheatre - April 30, 1988
Frost Amphitheatre - May 1, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 15, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 16, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 17, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 29, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 30, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 31, 1988
Tacoma Dome - August 26, 1988
Autzen Stadium - August 28, 1988
The Spectrum - September 8, 1988
The Spectrum - September 9, 1988
The Spectrum - September 11, 1988
The Spectrum - September 12, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 14, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 15, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 16, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 18, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 19, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 20, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 22, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 23, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 24, 1988
Miami Arena - October 14, 1988
Miami Arena - October 14, 1988
Bayfront Center Arena - October 15, 1988
Bayfront Center Arena - October 16, 1988
Keifer Lakefront Arena - October 18, 1988
The Summit - October 20, 1988
Reunion Arena - October 21, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 9, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 10, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 11, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 28, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 29, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 31, 1988
I saw everyone of these shows and had a great year. It may not have been their most cosmic ever...but lots of great stuff. Hampton, Phili, The Garden, St. Pete, New Orleans!, Laguna Seca, Frost, Long Beach... The Hampton To Lay Me Down still sends chills down my spine at this very moment....It was a good year. I was living in Berkeley that Summer and had the time of my life. Side note...everyone went on Summer tour, decided to stay home and enjoy the Bay Area Summer.... Bob Dylan played the Greek and good old Neil Young came and played guitar the entire show...so there was that moment too that made 88 a magical year....
Right, warlocks 89, such a blur. I forgot about Tampa/St Pete. Weird baseball stadium as I recall...or dont? I got bit by fire ants on my ass sitting on the ground while my spinner friend made me a ticket out of stubs. Karma is tough sometimes. Oh and had tons o fun at the Omni. Forgot that too.
So, I listened to all of 9-18-87 today and I must say I was underwhelmed. Solid show, but the first set was only six songs, and one of them was Walkin'. No bueno. Second set better - the Dew was pretty great, the rest just decent. Not even the best of 87, I'm pretty sure. I'll have to listen to some more 87, but I probably won't since I much prefer 68 to 78 and I only got so much time.
It is a short set but it makes room for the monster second and the short set is almost perfect (albeit for the Walkin, the lone non-stand out of the show, despite it being played very well, as well as a vocal miscue on Masterpiece I think).
I've already said the subject of best GD shows is a silly one because of how different they all are, to name one reason out of hundreds, but to me, there's not a show that year that even comes close to the perfection and build-up of that show, Surf. The build-up is actually what makes it stand out from the other shows of this post coma era.
I get that this is subjective and I also get that you might have vastly different musical taste than me, but I think you probably ought to give it another listen, but this time play it really loud. Maybe you wanted to be 'underwhelmed' when listening to it, at least on some level?
You can't find the momentum of song after song after song to that Morning Dew, especially considering that the climax of that Dew is arguably the greatest moment of that era (apologies to the Death Don't solo at Shoreline as well as some others).
As I said before, there are PLENTY of those shows throughout the earlier eras but not not many in this era. It's one reason I think Dan Healy gave the board and audience tape he made to Rob Eaton to master a genuine matrix recording. I think he wanted to create a special recording of this show and with Eaton's help and talent, that's exactly what happened.
If we are only talking about the post coma era, this show has like 6 'best of' versions of different songs. Try to search out and offer up shows you think can stand up to that. Franklin Page did and to my ears, 7/12/90 RFK comes close.
I was at Hampton 87 and 88 and while I may be in the minority I think Hampton 87 was better , hotter and a really good time.I liked 88 a lot as well.
KK I was at both of those Hampton runs w you and our buddies. Which did you like better?
To this day I still wonder if it was coincidence or if it was not that they did Sugar Mag-Scarlet-Fire both years when that was a sequey typically saved for NYE.
If you admit that some songs are "better" than other songs, whatever criteria you want to use to decide that, then it stands to reason that a show that has more of those songs will be a "better" show, all else being equal. In other words, the set list can be part of the relative goodness or badness of a show. That show only had a few of the songs that would be needed to create a "great" show, IMO. Yes, there is a build-up over the course of the show, but that just means that some of the stuff earlier in the show is a bit clunky.
Everyone has their own criteria of what makes a great show. You might value tightness, while others seek some measure of loositude. Bucky needs all high energy tunes, whereas others may requite some soulful Jerry ballads. Etc. If you assume basic competence (not always a given in the GD world!), everything else is personal preference - whatever scratches your musical itch.
Just don;t assume that if someone would only listen again, or listen louder, or listen to a different version, or listen in a different state of mind, that they would come around to your viewpoint. Most times, not gonna happen.
>>>If you admit that some songs are "better" than other songs, whatever criteria you want to use to decide that, then it stands to reason that a show that has more of those songs will be a "better" show,
Absolutely not. No, no, no and no again. You are taught in the minor leagues of seeing GD shows not to chase songs but to chase moments. You learn that, depending on the person, somewhere between your, I don't know...30th and 60th shows. It's about how they PLAY. It's always been about that.
Now, does it help, on the night of September 18, 1987, that Jerry Garcia did absolutely gorgeous versions of Sugaree, Candyman and Birdsong in the first set in front of an MSG crowd that was slowly starting to simmer? Sure it does. What about a MONSTER version of Shakedown to open a second set (in the argument for best ever)? Yes, it does help. And a large version of GTDRFB and gigantic, in the argument for best ever version of Watchtower? Yes again.
Does it help that Garcia played one the best versions (best ever for that era) of one of the most powerful and emotional songs of all time in Morning Dew, where there was a meeting of genius and the people of New York City after said genius belted the penultimate "I guess it doesn't matter, anyway!" as if his life was hanging in the fucking balance, to which the MSG faithful responded in kind by losing their ever fucking loving shit? Absolutely, it does.
And does it help that they didn't end the show there, like they would have 99 out of 100 times, but sandwiched a La Bamba in between a Good Lovin to close the show? And when one Jerome Garcia belted out "Soy Capitan!" to a now fully imploding Madison Square Garen crowd, the actual venue itself was reported to have srated to fall apart, reports of bits of the ceiling coming down on folks on the floor? Again...yes.
Finally, does it help that they top it off with arguably the best version Garcia has ever done (with that band) of a song that means a ton to him in Heaven's Door? Fucking yes it does.
I'm leaving out an monster version of Woman R and a beautiful rendition of Terrapin Station becasue we just don't have the time.
So yeah, great versions of great songs like that do mean something. And we do all have our own personal favourites, but most of us would take an increible version of one of our 'meh' songs to a 'meh' version of one of our favorites songs. Cause that's where those moments arise. And there were a ton of them on that night at MSG. And it's all there in the tape waiting to be unearthed.
So, excuse me if I have trouble believing ANYONE who likes the Grateful Dead was 'underwhelmed' after hearing 9/18/87. This is why I suggest you relisten at a much louder volume (I assume you are using one of the great SDBs--I'll be more than happy to send you Eaton's mix where you will not have a single goose bump unaccounted for after you hear Garcia's last line in Dew before the ending jam).
Not tomorrow...but sometime in the next few months.
It's your loss if you choose not to. And if you feel the same way, I'll just chalk it up to one of those mysteries in life that never gets explained like where the joint I rolled in my bedroom disappeard to in 8th grade.
And I'm also asking you to provide me with some show from '87 that you think is better so I can get a glimpse into your subjective ear.
Sorry, not delving into 1987 any more. I only listen to the GD about twice a week - any more than that kinda lessens the experience for me. I'm gonna listen to what I want to listen to - 68 to 78. I hope to hear decent or better, maybe even great versions of songs I like. I don't really spend much time worried about what's best. Nothing's best.. A lot of those songs were not "great" songs, IMO.. The show would have been "better", IMO, if it had some different songs. I'd rather hear a tune I love with a few glitches in it than a song I hate played perfectly. No matter how well Walkin' or Women Smarter are played, they will never be great songs. IMO.
Every show has a Walkin or something in it's place Surf, same with Women...hate to break it to ya. You can always skip an offending song like that if you wish--I do that with Vinnie's songs the VERY few times I'm listening to that era...it makes the set a ton better.
Weir is half the 2-headed singing monster of that band and there are some nights when you get the Straws and Estimateds and B T Winds to off-set his weaker stuff buy you're always going to get the weaker stuff cause he has to fill half of that 2-headed thing. If a Walkin and Women (both really well played on this night) are going to turn you off of a show then you should absolutely not listen to any shows from this era. Maybe even stay away from the decade of 1980. And don't even think about going into the 90s...ever.
And I asked you to listen to it a few month from now, not now. Maybe you'll do me that solid and do it, and play it loud this time...really loud, who knows.
I could have oversold this show to you to the point where you were expecting '68 to '78 type stuff when in '87, it's a different band. One has to have the '87 ears on to appreciate that era.
Anyway...this topic has been talked to death which I take full responsibility for, obviously.
And Hampton 87 vs 88?
I was at both and think it's a toss up...two fantastic runs at the best indoor venue in GD modern times. For me, To Lay Me Down is an uber important song to me and that version is a peak moment in terms of that time period. But so was the Terrapin in '87, though Terrapin is a totally different thing than To Lay so comparing those things is kind of silly.
I think those runs are a good microcosm of those two particular years. There are some who are going to prefer the 87 run and others the 88 run. To me, 3/27/88 was the best full show of both runs but both runs were all kinds of awesome--if I had to pick one, it'd be 88.
86 Hampton was the year that let everyone know that place wasn't to be skipped again. Everyone talks about the Box bust-out as they should...that was the explosion heard round the world. but for me, that Visions debut is absolutely breathtaking--just pure, unadulterated genius and the diamond of that run.
>>>that Visions debut is absolutely breathtaking--just pure, unadulterated genius and the diamond of that run.
I agree 100% with that Felina. That was my first trip to Hampton & the only Visions Of Johanna I saw. I still get goosebumps when I listen to it. I only went to 3/19, so I missed the Box of Rain breakout the next night, but the Visions makes up for it IMO.
^^^^The one night stands, except 1980, were very solid^^^^
'84 & '85, the first 2 years for more than one show, were up and down, '86 3rd night and the 2nd set of the Box show were snoozers, followed by 3 really good runs.
Yeah, I should have said '86 let the 'younger generation' know. I was really only referring to their decision to break out Box at that place, that's what let us know.
But Hampton or Richmond pre-coma must have been like heaven.
1980 Hampton was one of the worst, if not the worst, Dead show I ever saw in 22 years. Just a god awful train wreck. Pre drums was something like 25 minutes, Garcia had to grab Weir and spin him around and tell him to go into Eyes, and during NFA the crowd right in front of the stage was holding up some passed out guy above their heads. Just bad energy, really ugly. When they came out and did Johnny B. Goode for the encore (what seemed like the cheapest option available) my girlfriend gave them the finger, but it really wasn't their fault. Some nights everything just refuses to click.
And then 1981 was one of the best experiences I ever had at a show, top 5 of all time.
>>>No matter how well Walkin' or Women Smarter are played, they will never be great songs. IMO<<<
We all have our personal preferences, but I think the early renditions of Woman Are Smarter in '81 & '82 were damn good. I can think of two that I'm happy to listen to any time I come across them, 9/11/81 & 2/17/82, and I've come across those two shows very often over all the years and never been sorry to hear them.
In those years the song was played gently with an easy floating groove (as apposed to the way they played just about everything in the era this thread is covering) which allowed Jerry's solos to be amazingly articulate and subtly brilliant.
As for Walkin' Blues, it was never a favorite, but the one they played with Boz Scaggs in SF in '82 was damn good.
As for '88 or any other year near there, I have nothing to say, so please excuse the interruption and carry on.
And that is a great example of Women R Smarter taking up space in the second set that could have been better served by another song. One of my complaints about an otherwise great show.
1. Not Fade Away--
2. Scarlet Begonias--
3. Fire On The Mountain--
4. Woman R Smarter--
5. Drums--
6. Space--
7. The Other One--
8. Wharf Rat--
9. Throwing Stones--
10. Not Fade Away Reprise
11. E: Black Muddy River
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
The same thing that was weak
The same thing that was weak about the whole year, whatever that was.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Bluelight
Length.
Length and Quality of Service.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: makaha
great year for the nba.
great year for the nba.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: An organ grinder’s tune
don't people like the devil w
don't people like the devil w/ a blue dress?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bza
Devil was 87. The general
Devil was 87. The general playing in 88 was not memorable - I liked the opening 2 shows, and the China doll later on - but, unlike other MSG runs, no show was particularly full of hot x-factor. Victim-Foolish was in its infancy and worked out there a few times, otherwise what were the highlights? breakouts? It's just a certain "level" of cohesion that was not hit, regardless of nice playing moments....
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: cb
What was weak about '88 MSG
What was weak about '88 MSG run? <<<
Jerry's voice.
It was shot by the end of the run.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: krab
Two of the 8 shows has just
Two of the shows has just Brent & Bobby songs post drums, another was GDTRFB around Brent & Bobby, the last show was Wheel>Stones>NFA.
Missing the "Ballad" slot was very popular in '88, an inconsistent year 4 sure, plenty of ups and downs....
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Franklin Page
What was weak? Jerry voice
What was weak? Jerry's voice and Bobby's guitar sound. Both had issues the entire year
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: DaBreeze
Apparently, the band got a
Apparently, in the early days of the song, the band got a big kick out of playing 'Victim or the Crime' after a big dance number, and watch the crowd just stand there, dumbfounded.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Randy
I LOVED '88. But then I also
I LOVED '88. But then I also love 89-95. Not like, love...
But I'm also not as old as some of y'all.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: The Eggman
I liked Hampton 88 a lot .
I liked Hampton 88 a lot . Garden 87 was way better than 88 but I still had fun and enjoyed the music for the most part.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: TommyGutt
The gooney birds were kinda
The gooney birds were kinda weak,had to take like 4
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
Out of the run, 3 of the
Out of the run, 3 of the shows were pretty damn hot. Others good to OK. They lost a bit of steam as the residency progressed.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I saw maybe 10 shows Spring
I saw maybe 10 shows Spring 88, and all were great except for one night Worcester. I saw another 10 or so that summer. Maybe I was jaded because I was drugged to the gills and in love, but I loved those shows. I saw only a few that Fall, and I think they were just tired.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Sycamore Slough
Think I attended 4 of the 9
Think I attended 4 of the 9 nights. One of these days I'll locate the old Stubs. Definitely did not go the last night w/ Suzanne Vega, Hall & Oates, Mick Taylor, Jack Casady et al (9-24-88) but definitely went 9-23-88. 9-14 & 9-18 seem likely, looking at the setlists.
Whatever nights I went, I brought a grocery sack full of Habañero peppers to Miracle before and during the Shows. They were actually a Carribean variant, slightly milder and more flavorful compared to the typical variety.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Only at a Dead show would a
Only at a Dead show would a person gleefully be handing out habaneros, and the recipients would gleefully be eating them.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Willie McD
Nothing stands out from that
Nothing stands out from that run with the benefit show being a real clunker. A big letdown.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: .............
htfd 88....nice...nice...
htfd 88....nice...nice....very nice
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Where Does The Time Go?
{{{{HJK 3-16-88}}}}
{{{{HJK 3-16-88}}}}
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Sycamore Slough
'...would a person gleefully
'...would a person gleefully be handing out habaneros, and the recipients would gleefully be eating..."
The most awesome part of all that was that you could actually get away with it, back then. MSG security had no problems with bringing in a half-sack of Hot Peppers.
I did actually witness some Habañeros wind up on stage. There were puzzled glances from Band Members, liek; "Balloons are somewhat Normal, but what have we here ??"
The Funniest thing was people coming up later, saying "Have you any more of Them ??"
They actually were quite luscious, and plucked Fresh from my Farm. There were Red ones, Green, Gold, and a few Purples.
Maybe the strain was from Trinidad ?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jeff
4-1-88 Brendan Byrne has one
4-1-88 Brendan Byrne has one of my favorite first sets:
Jack Straw>1/2 step>Comes a time
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Philzone Refugee
They just never achieved lift
They just never achieved lift-off at that run. The Spring and Summer shows had several good moments, and the Capital Centre and Spectrum shows before these were solid. There was just nothing terribly innovative, which was surprising given the extended residency. I've got master audience tapes of most of these shows but seldomly listen to them.
Stu, I remember getting a habanero pepper during those shows. Crazy to think that our paths crossed way back when. Just goes to show, you give someone a hot pepper, and 25 years later they give you a ride to the airport on the other side of the continent. Small world.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Kenny
88 was the calm before the 89
88 was the calm before the 89 storm. SPAC in the summer of 88, as well as a few of those MSG shows were a blast, but 89 was smoking from start to finish.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Chuck511
>>>Jack Straw>1/2 step>Comes
>>>Jack Straw>1/2 step>Comes a time
To Lay Me Down actually. I love that show as well. The first one I took my younger brother to. Last Ballad of a Thin Man & a rockin' Deal to close set I. Second set was pretty standard as far as the setlist, but very well played.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: TommyGutt
Ohhh Idk MSG 88 Did Have some
Ohhh Idk MSG 88 Did Have some Moments..currently listening to 09/20/88 um
peggy o jerrs voice isnt shot
Bertha int cumby not that fucking bad at all
Give it a listeLouie.
.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: TommyGutt
2cnd set ...
2cnd set
...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Philzone Refugee
You're right, Tommy, I
You're right, Tommy, I remember 9/20 being the pick of the litter.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
In my memory Fall '88 was
In my memory Fall '88 was the epitome of boilerplate set lists. Quick, not much (any) improve in/out of drums/space. The addition of the GDTRFB>Miracle>Fantasy>Jude (debuted at Kaiser March '88) to the rotation sealed that 3 night rotation. I remember looking at the set lists from the southern fall tour and it was all just retreads.
That said, there were exceptions. Oxford Plains Speedway was a BIG exception. Those shows ripped and dripped.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
They had three set lists out
They had three set lists out of space:
1) Other One > Rat > TStones > NFA
2) Wheel > Gimme Some Lovin > Watchtower > (Stella/Dew)
3) GDTRFB>Miracle>Fantasy>Jude
Of course, I'd pay DeadCo ticket prices to see those lined up today :)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Localcountyline
The Oxford, Maine shows that
The Oxford, Maine shows that summer did not suck.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Localcountyline
Just saw your post Ned. Those
Just saw your post Ned. Those may have been the shows of the year.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
Yep, both Alpine and MSG fell
Yep, both Alpine and MSG fell flat.
Alpine: Scarlet > I Will Take You Home debut ?? Yea, no.
Oxford brought the heat, especially the first night. Perhaps the best weekend of my GD run.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
No love for Bloomington, MN,
No love for Bloomington, MN, Summer 88, with the Set 1 Victim break out?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
If anyone thinks the MSG 88
If anyone thinks the MSG 88 run was weak, then they also think the MSG '87 run was weak.
87 had 9/18 and 88 didn't...but one show doens't make or break a run.
>>>The same thing that was weak about the whole year, whatever that was.
Says the guy who went to what? 2 shows that year? One show?
And has listened to what? 4 shows from that year? 2 shows?
Just curious.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>Yep, both Alpine and MSG
>>>Yep, both Alpine and MSG fell flat.
6/23/88 Alpine set II is pure electric gold.
Not only is it scorching all the way through and one of the best of the year, it's got the debut of Believe it or Not...one of the most emotional debuts Jerry Garcia ever performed.
Special set that one.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>Oxford brought the heat,
>>>Oxford brought the heat, especially the first night. Perhaps the best weekend of my GD run.
Oxford, MSG and Alpine...you went to all three, right?
Otherwise, you and Bucky have somethign in common.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Says the guy who went to what
>>>>>Says the guy who went to what? 2 shows that year? One show? And has listened to what? 4 shows from that year? 2 shows? Just curious.
I attended 4 shows that year - the two in my local area and two in Oakland. - difficult to travel further w/ two young kids.
I have, however, listened to about 30 or so out of 80.
Not saying there were no good shows that year - Oxford stands out, but not a lot else that I can think of at the moment. Of the ones I attended, Autzen was the best, and a fun show, but not one of the greats.
"Someone" was quoted as saying that the Drums in 88 "sounded like a washing machine full of bowling balls". Maybe it was tennis balls? Anyway, a bit of an exaggeration, but the RDs were having some problems that year playing in synch, which is probably one of the main reasons, IMO, why the band sounded kind of flat.
All in all, I found 1988 lacking in something that was there in 87, and there in spades in 89.
Yes, maybe if I had listened to more shows my opinion might be different, but I doubt it.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>Yes, maybe if I had
>>>Yes, maybe if I had listened to more shows my opinion might be different, but I doubt it.
I absolutely think it would be different. I'd bet a lot of money on it.
If I put up the best shows of '87 against the best shows of '88 for example, '88 wins.
Just look at what Garcia did with the song Morning Dew in the summer of 1988. It was glorious. It was other-worldly.
9/18 is the best post-coma GD show. There is little doubt about that. But as a year, I don't think '87 beats '88.
I could argue either one, depending on the mood I was in.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
>>>>>9/18 is the best post
>>>>>9/18 is the best post-coma GD show. There is little doubt about that.
Lol.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
Which ones beat 9/18 in your
Which ones beat 9/18 in your opinion.
10/26/89?
10/16/89?
10/9/89?
3/29/90?
12/31/90?
Curious again.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
I probably shouldn't have
I probably shouldn't have said 'there's little doubt about that' cause there's always doubt about anything.
Probably should have said I think most would agree that 9/18 is the best post coma show out there.
More difficult to argue with that statement.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: gypsy tailwind
>> No love for Bloomington,
>> No love for Bloomington, MN, Summer 88, with the Set 1 Victim break out?
Was high AF! That Victim scared the shit out of me...
We served the INXS/Ziggy crowd the night before...Goodtimes!
The Alpine Believe It Or Not was special...
Blackbird was sweet!
Morning Dew was no slouch.
5 days at Alpine. 2 Shows, day off, 2 Shows...
"The Dust Bowl of '88"
We carried that dust all the way to Maine!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Sycamore Slough
Oxford was Huge Fun in many
Oxford was Huge Fun in many ways. Besides some awesome music, the sheer Novelty of being out on a huge field in the Maine Summer was something.
In comparison when there are 5 or 7 or 9 nights at MSG it all becomes a blur, except if there is a Branford appearance or maybe Hall & Oates.
My sister was living in Fryeburg, Maine back then so we took the back roads and avoided traffic. Definitely my favorite outdoor East Coast shows, although I attended great ones at RFK & JFK.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
I'm not like you, Felina - I
I'm not like you, Felina - I can't remember every show I was at or listened to. At this point a lot of them blend together - dwindling number of brain cells ya know. I know you've been and listened to many more shows than I have.
But those you mentioned sound familiar, and some of them may be better than 9/18. There may be a few others. I'd have to relisten. It may be that 9/18 is the best post-coma show, but I'm pretty sure there are others in 89 or 90 that I experienced as "better".
It was your certainty I was lolling at, not the quality of the show.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: TommyGutt
Drums from pittsburg 88 not
Drums from pittsburg 88 not out of sync
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>t may be that 9/18 is the
>>>t may be that 9/18 is the best post-coma show, but I'm pretty sure there are others in 89 or 90 that I experienced as "better".
Problem is that you may have experienced some shows in 89 or 90 that you thought were better but in your case, you really gotta judge by the tapes...unless you were also at 9/18/87.
Otherwise that 'experience' gets in the way and has a bias. The bias of whatever show I was at was better than whatever show I wasn't at. We can refer to it as the Bucky Bias since he's defined it pretty well over the years. Trust me...he's not alone by a long shot, there are way more of those people than less of them. I guess it's human nature.
As to the shows I mentioned: my bet is that if you are talking about the Miami Sound Machine show with the great D Star (10/26/89) or the first Branford show (3/29/90) at Brenden Byrbe or Bob's Brenden Byrne Birthday show (10/16/89) that some people know from the official release 'Nightfall of Diamonds' or the 2nd Warlocks show at Hampton (10/9/89) with the D Star breakout.... which may help place those I shows I mentioned in your mind better than just the dates...what those shows, as examples don't' have over what MSG 9/18 does have is the 'complete' aspect thing...the complete show. Meaning first set, second set plus encore.
When you use that measurement for a show and that's really the only measurement you can use when talking about the best in terms of shows...it's my opinion 9/18 tops all those mentioned in that list. Gotta have a perfect first, perfect second and a perfect encore helps too. We aren't talking favourites lists here...we're talking best lists.
I think the only show I can think of off top of my head is the 3/27/88 Hampton with the Ballad of a Thin Man and the To Lay breakout in the first set and So What Jam into the Sugar>Scarlet>Fire as being one that someone could argue as being in the running for best post coma show possibly...this is subjective after all.
I get that you're less into these kinds of specifics but that's what goes into it when comparing this stuff---specifics. In truth, I'm not into best show lists and definitely not into comparing different shows from different eras but that post coma era is really the only one that lends itself to having a best show, at least in my opinion and that's why I mentioned it when arguing about the merits of 1988. All the other eras don't really have a best show that stands above all the others.
Hope you're doing well and that you had a good summer.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Franklin Page
9/18/87 is a monumental show
9/18/87 is a monumental show but 1st night alpine 89 is better. I would also say that 10/16/89, 10/26/89, 7/12/90 (RFK) and 6/17/91 are better too. 10/9/89 is an amazing show for the experience it was (I was there) but I don't think the band is actually playing as well as they did later in the tour (I did not those other fall 89 shows)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
First night at Alpine (7/17
First night at Alpine (7/17/89) first set gets killed by the first set at MSG in terms of tightness, in terms of precision. The second set is fantastic but also gets beat by MSG in terms of raw power, especially in the post space. 10/16/89 first set maybe beats MSG 87 first set cause of the Grow>Deal to close and the monumental Mobile (despite having a Picasso Moon in it) but the second set doesn't hold a candle to MSG 87. It just doesn't--even with the D Star and Attics (and I will Take You Home). Just listen and compare.
10/26/89 Miami also doesn't have a fantastic first set. Also...when you compare the post space of Miami 89 (which isn't that great) to the post space of MSG (which is biblical), the contrast is clear.
7/12/90 RFK is just not that tight all the way through in my opinion. You may have had a great time at that show but it's not even in the same universe as MSG 87.
6/17/91 Giants is cool and all with the D Star jams Bruce and company are playing throughout but it's first set isn't better (although I'll give you that the Eyes is a better opener than the Bucket) and the post space is also not in the same galaxy as MSG 87 post space.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Set II of 3/24/87, Hampton,
Set II of 3/24/87, Hampton, rivals 9/18's second set. That Terrapin alone may be the best in the 80s.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: KK
Felina.....how are you Bro. I
Felina.....how are you Bro. I have not seen you post much on the new zone but having said that I have had a few hiatuses myself. I guess the question of 88 motivated you to post. Reminds a of a thread where I asserted that that 88 was one of the weaker years. That was on the old zone I guess 4 years ago? I must admit that I did not see a whole lotta shows in 88. You gave me a few discs when we first met at TXR to turn my 88 frown upside down. Oxford was one of them. Incredible quality and I believe you referred to it as a "matrix" recording? I think you also gave me Philly? Great stuff.
87 was a great year both spring and Fall. One of my favorites. I have always thought that after 87, 88 was a step down. 87 had hot first sets although a wee bit short. Well played second sets but short on psychedelia and space. These factors contributing to some labeling 87 as Dead Lite. One undeniable fact of 87 was the enthusiasm of Jerry stepping up, belly to mike, and belting away vocally. Jerry also seemed to have stepped up and with great motivation ripping up his own little ditties turning them upside down and inside out.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: El Nino
So what was the best pre-coma
So what was the best pre-coma - post Keith and Donna show? 79 to 86?
I can never pick a best but my list would include
10/27/79 Cape Cod
9/6/80 State Fairgrounds Lewiston Maine
8/3/82 Starlight Theater Kansas City
9/17/82 Cumberland County Civic Center Portland ME
12/31/82 Oakland Auditorium
3/31/85 Cumberland County Civic Center Portland ME
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
This one's just to Franklin
This one's just to Franklin Page...no one else will have the slightest interest in reading further.
I mixed stuff up in my brain when I was taking about 7/12/90 RFK...was thinking about another show...my bad. The dates are getting jumbled as the years progress.
It came to me that I was thinking 89 at that place and not the famous 90 show, which rules...so I looked up that show to remind myself of the specifics, having not been there, and when comparing that to MSG--it's close. For me, I don't think the first set is as tight--it's fatter and juicer for sure and much longer to boot but just not as tight and beautiful...nothing like the Sugaree and Bridsong at MSG is at RFK but instead RFK has the monster Cassidy and Jed and Music--so that's a toss up. And I'm not gonna say you're wrong if you think the RFK set one is better cause I think that's a justifiable opinion.
As far as the second set and the pre-drums, I think RFK with that epic D Star beats MSG with the monster Shakedown>Women>Terrapin. However, even though there is FIRE in the RFK post space, it's not on the same level as the FIRE for the post space at MSG, and it's really not even close. And that's where the MSG show beats the RFK show, at least to my ears.
Plus the MSG encore of best ever Heaven's Door sodomizes the RFK encore of The Weight in terms of how they are played.
So apologies for mixing up 7/12 with another RFK show. I think it's because I thought that release of 7/12/89 RFK for one of those 'At the Movies' things was going to be 7/12/90 up until the first song seeing it with my buddies and realized I was mixing those two shows together...and consequently, those two shows now get jumbled up in my frontal lobe I think.
But not anymore.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Highnote
Interesting. Saw no shows
Interesting. Saw no shows that year. I wasn't touring and they didn't come to Colorado.
Grateful Dead
1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 13, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 14, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 16, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 17, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 16, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 17, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 18, 1988
The Omni - March 24, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 26, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 27, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 28, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - March 30, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - March 31, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - April 1, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 3, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 4, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 5, 1988
The Centrum - April 7, 1988
The Centrum - April 8, 1988
The Centrum - April 9, 1988
Joe Louis Arena - April 11, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 13, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 14, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 15, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 22, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 23, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 24, 1988
Frost Amphitheatre - April 30, 1988
Frost Amphitheatre - May 1, 1988
Metropolitan Sports Center - June 17, 1988
Alpine Valley Music Theatre - June 19, 1988
Alpine Valley Music Theatre - June 20, 1988
Alpine Valley Music Theatre - June 22, 1988
Alpine Valley Music Theatre - June 23, 1988
Buckeye Lake Music Center - June 25, 1988
Pittsburgh Civic Arena - June 26, 1988
Saratoga Performing Arts Center - June 28, 1988
Silver Stadium - June 30, 1988
Oxford Plains Speedway - July 2, 1988
Oxford Plains Speedway - July 3, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 15, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 16, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 17, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 29, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 30, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 31, 1988
Tacoma Dome - August 26, 1988
Autzen Stadium - August 28, 1988
Capital Centre - September 2, 1988
Capital Centre - September 3, 1988
Capital Centre - September 5, 1988
Capital Centre - September 6, 1988
The Spectrum - September 8, 1988
The Spectrum - September 9, 1988
The Spectrum - September 11, 1988
The Spectrum - September 12, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 14, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 15, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 16, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 18, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 19, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 20, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 22, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 23, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 24, 1988
Shoreline Amphitheatre - September 30, 1988
Shoreline Amphitheatre - October 1, 1988
Shoreline Amphitheatre - October 2, 1988
Miami Arena - October 14, 1988
Miami Arena - October 14, 1988
Bayfront Center Arena - October 15, 1988
Bayfront Center Arena - October 16, 1988
Keifer Lakefront Arena - October 18, 1988
The Summit - October 20, 1988
Reunion Arena - October 21, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 9, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 10, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 11, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 28, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 29, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 31, 1988
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>So what was the best pre
>>>So what was the best pre-coma - post Keith and Donna show? 79 to 86?
There are a lot and there isn't a clear cut winner in my mind. Way more complete show candidates that the post coma years, that's for sure. The shows you mentioned are famous and for good reason but mostly cause of their second sets and Titanic versions of special songs like the Other One at Cape Cod 79 for example. When you're talking about best shows from that era, you have to look at both first and second sets--shows like Augusta 10/12/84 as one example, which have spectacular first sets and spectacular second sets (plus special encores don't hurt). Apologies for the redundancies.
I don't think of comparing best shows from those years though, to tell you the truth, just cause 79 is so vastly different than 85. So that 9/6/80 Maine show you mentioned, which is a great one from start to finish, is so vastly different from say 6/28/85 Hershey Park, which is also great from start to finish. They were such a different band by then, mostly due to Garcia and how much he had changed during that period, but not just that.
And also...I don't really get into picking best shows...cause that stuff is technical stuff in a way, where you really have to look at all the songs and a disaster song here or there takes that show out of the running if you are putting it in front of god, for example.
I much prefer thinking about favorite shows. A great example is the show that took place on the Veneta Fairgrounds in 1972. That one might just be the most special show to me, might just be my favorite single show if I had to pick one at gun point, which is the only situation where I'd do something like that. But that show isn't the best show ever, not by a long shot. It just has some of the most special moments ever...moments that opened up space time continuums and introduced that audience to a 4th dimension, for sometimes minutes on end! Starting with the opening notes of China Cat and going from there. That stuff is way more interesting to talk about cause that's what that band was about, right? They weren't about great shows, perfect sets, etc..there are other artists that are truly great and are about that but the GD were about creating stuff out of thin air that changed us in those moments and were recorded and now live in people like us and will for a long time. What they created, those seconds of magic--those seconds are what that band is about to me. And there were an awful lot of them. Garcia just had so much in him--it's staggering when you think about it.
So I don't get into best shows ever cause, to me, it's counter to what that band was all about. They DID have TONS of great shows from start to finish and those shows were certainly more common in 1979 and 1980 than in 1985, but that wasn't what that band was in the end at least to my mind, so it's kind of a counterintuitive topic, if that makes any sense at all.
Apologies for all these long winded rants! I gotta assume only a very small % of people are reading them and I gotta make up for the neglect I've been responsible for regarding this place too.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>Felina.....how are you Bro
>>>Felina.....how are you Bro. I have not seen you post much on the new zone but having said that I have had a few hiatuses myself. I guess the question of 88 motivated you to post.
What up KK! Hope you are good my man.
Yeah, I haven't been coming around much at all and just happend to stop in today and see a few topics I wanted to chime in about.
>>> Reminds a of a thread where I asserted that that 88 was one of the weaker years. That was on the old zone I guess 4 years ago? I must admit that I did not see a whole lotta shows in 88.
That's how it goes I think. For example, if it was the other way around and you saw a bunch of shows in 88 and not many in '87, I think you'd dig 88 much more than '87.
I gotta run but love ya man...be well and rock on!
That goes for all of yous...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
I saw 25 in '87 and 24 in '88
I saw 25 in '87 and 24 in '88 so I had a pretty good grasp of both years, '87 had far more energy and consistency.
9/20/88 was a good show from that run, but they were spent by the end of that tour before then even hit the Garden. Both the Cap Centre and the Spectrum runs were very good.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
You may have been spent
You may have been spent before they hit MSG Thom, but the GD weren’t, at least not to my eyes and ears. 9/18/88 proves that much. I do think ’87 has this ‘edge’ to it, a newfound Garcia enthusiasm that changed into something else by the time '88 rolled around, a different kind of energy. Each year is kind of distinct in that and other ways but in terms of consistency, if you lined up every tape, I don’t think ’87 would show itself as more consistent in terms of play when compared to '88.
One distinction for '88 was was Believe it or Not. I was fortunate enough to see 4 of them in short order and that was pretty special for someone like me who cherishes Garcia's ballads. I also saw some great stuff in 87 and I meant it when I said I could argue for either one of those years. To me, they were both good years leading into more good years before Brent went.
By the time '89 rolled around, the presence of Brent's new songs was in full swing and it seemed to genuinely energize Garcia as a musician more than anything else could, and they went full steam ahead with Brent holding his own with his songs that Garcia seemed to really love playing...a whole new spark of sorts.
With his passing, they lost that and it's my opinion it took it's toll, musically speaking, on Garcia more than anyone else in that band. I know there are plenty of heads who didn't care for Brent's growing influence but to me, I thought it was pretty obvious the most important person did care and cared a lot.
'88 was the start of that, the start of what would build and build before, sadly, it all came down in the summer of '90.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Good analysis, Felina. Agree
Good analysis, Felina. Agree except for "I don’t think ’87 would show itself as more consistent in terms of play when compared to '88.".
Hah!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
Garcia's hair was abnormally
Garcia's hair was abnormally short in 1988. The lack of a free flowing mane could have indirectly affected the looseness of his playing.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
Felina in 1988 I was at
Felina in 1988 I was at Kaiser (March), Irvine, Buckeye, Oxford, Tacoma, Autzen.
No, I did not attend MSG or Alpine, but according to you that makes me less biased, right? lol
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>>>>Yep, both Alpine and
>>>>>>Yep, both Alpine and MSG fell flat.
Hey Ned! What up? Hope you are good, my man.
No, the fact you didn't attend MSG and Alpine makes you more biased according to the 'Bucky Bias.' And apologies to Bucky, who I have no problem with and whom I like. I've always thought he and Key were good people, despite their dislike of treasures like Stella Blue.
It's similar to the 'confirmation bias' where we pay attention to things that confirm what we think and disregard information that goes against what we think, heads have a tendency to downplay the shows they missed (to not pay attention to them) for probably a whole bunch of reasons--maybe the biggest being that it makes them feel better about the fact they missed them.
So if you had been to Alpine for example, and seen that 6/23 set two, there is a distinct possibility that you would not have said it 'fell flat.' We'll never know but that's the bias I'm talking about.
Doesn't mean Oxford wasn't great, cause it was, and it doesn't mean every show at Alpine was good cause that first one was a clunker, it just means we seem to want to see the positives of the shows we saw and the negatives of the shows we didn't see, as a whole.
I tend to do the exact opposite for reasons I'm not aware of. No idea what you tend to do, but I'm sure you know plenty of folks who have shown this bias plenty.
Hit me with your address if you want a fantastic FM of that Alpine set I'm talking about.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
I'm picking up what you're
I'm picking up what you're laying down, Felina.
Since I didn't attend MSG '87 or '88 (or any MSG shows), then I'm very qualified to rate them in an unbiased fashion.
My "fell flat" comment was essentially saying that the one year they did 4 shows at Alpine, and 9 at MSG, they were arguably inferior to other years at the same venue. (I attended Alpine in 1986, which is hands down the worst of the lot, so no bias there :) )
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
Living in Manhattan for most
Living in Manhattan for most of my life (& feeling fortunate 2 have this opportunity) I caught all of the 87, 88 & 89 MSG shows. I don't see all that much difference between the GD performance during these three years. In each of these years (& throughout the entire 30 years of performances), some shoes were better then others. The 9/23/88 Victim > Foolish Heart was all there then some, especially Phil's contribution during Victim. I grok that many don't care for that song, but the energy during this portion of the shoe was palpable. I agree that by the second half of the 88 MSG run, Jerry's vocal chords were strained, but the instrumental chops were fine.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Thumbkinetic
Been listening to this run
Been listening to this run all week. Had a heavy rehearsal schedule at the time and couldn't make even one of them.
Had to settle for one Spectrum show (Mickey's birthday).
A little less "hot" overall and a little more sloppy, so far. 9/20 has JG's voice starting to crap out.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Franklin Page
Best pre-coma post-Godchaux
Best pre-coma post-Godchaux is a very very difficult pick. There are so many fantastic shows of similar caliber and set lists were not as diverse as they became later.
2 shows with Dark Star, 3 with St. Stephen... all of them great but not necessarily the best.
I'm just going to say that it's 9/12/81 with 7/13/84 runner up
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
"You may have been spent
"You may have been spent before they hit MSG Thom"
Nope, saw most of the MSG run as well, just don't remember being blown away by much on the run. The benefit was downright dismal.
I was actually front row for 9/18, no Scarlet jam to speak of (less than three minutes) and while it was nice seeing NFA open the set they didn't stretch it our at all. Women are Smarter was longer than The Other One. I like my shows with a bit more improvisation and it really wasn't there that night. To each his own.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>> I caught all of the 87,
>>> I caught all of the 87, 88 & 89 MSG shows.
You probably mean '90 instead of '89.
A run at MSG in '89 would have been pretty cool.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>The benefit was downright
>>>The benefit was downright dismal.
They had definitely run out of steam by then...I will absolutely give you that.
I hear you on the impov thing, but the energy of that night (9/18) is what I took away.
I was 18, second time in NYC and MSG and had only seen 60 or so shows by then so I was probably more excited at Weir running from mic to mic (Garcia's/Lesh's) whipping that place into a frenzy on that T Stones than you.
(His mic went out.)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Fly
I saw all of 88 except the
I saw all of 88 except the California shows and half of the MSG run. Scratch that, saw the New Years run. Point is I liked most of 88, oxford, warlocks, miami come to mind. I think the issue with MSG was how many shows. I was burnt and I imagine the band was too. You know when people say go to a happy place? I sometimes think of staring at that ultralight flying around OPSpeedway during a sick Crazy->Playin->Uncle Johns. The dust kicked up by dancers in the setting sun. Smell of stir fry and ganj in the air. ahhh relaxing even as I type.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
I was never excited during
I was never excited during Throwing Stones so, yea, you're right on that.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
There was a TS at one of the
There was a TS at one of the 90-94 Autzen shows that was pretty exciting.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>I liked most of 88, oxford
>>>I liked most of 88, oxford, warlocks, miami come to mind.
Just plain ol'Hampton in '88, no Warlocks.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
> > > You probably mean '90
I stand duly corrected.
The NY east coast 89 fall run took place in NJ
That included a nice Bob birthday DS.
Though a better 89 DS happened 10 days later in a place many NY's go after they retire.
Beginning with the Warlocks shoes, the 1989 fall tour had a renewed energy.
Yes, while the 88 Rainforest benefit show was somewhat lacking, seeing Jerry join with Mick Taylor for two tunes provided for a heady guitar mix. I also enjoyed the Suzanne Vega portion of the shoe, but to each his or her own.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Shastadave
Grateful Dead
Grateful Dead
1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 13, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 14, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 16, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - February 17, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 16, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 17, 1988
Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center - March 18, 1988
The Omni - March 24, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 27, 1988
Hampton Coliseum - March 28, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - March 30, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - March 31, 1988
Meadowlands Arena - April 1, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 3, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 4, 1988
Hartford Civic Center - April 5, 1988
The Centrum - April 7, 1988
The Centrum - April 8, 1988
The Centrum - April 9, 1988
Joe Louis Arena - April 11, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 13, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 14, 1988
Rosemont Horizon - April 15, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 22, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 23, 1988
Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre - April 24, 1988
Frost Amphitheatre - April 30, 1988
Frost Amphitheatre - May 1, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 15, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 16, 1988
Greek Theatre - July 17, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 29, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 30, 1988
Laguna Seca Recreation Area - July 31, 1988
Tacoma Dome - August 26, 1988
Autzen Stadium - August 28, 1988
The Spectrum - September 8, 1988
The Spectrum - September 9, 1988
The Spectrum - September 11, 1988
The Spectrum - September 12, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 14, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 15, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 16, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 18, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 19, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 20, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 22, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 23, 1988
Madison Square Garden - September 24, 1988
Miami Arena - October 14, 1988
Miami Arena - October 14, 1988
Bayfront Center Arena - October 15, 1988
Bayfront Center Arena - October 16, 1988
Keifer Lakefront Arena - October 18, 1988
The Summit - October 20, 1988
Reunion Arena - October 21, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 9, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 10, 1988
Long Beach Arena - December 11, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 28, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 29, 1988
Oakland Coliseum Arena - December 31, 1988
I saw everyone of these shows and had a great year. It may not have been their most cosmic ever...but lots of great stuff. Hampton, Phili, The Garden, St. Pete, New Orleans!, Laguna Seca, Frost, Long Beach... The Hampton To Lay Me Down still sends chills down my spine at this very moment....It was a good year. I was living in Berkeley that Summer and had the time of my life. Side note...everyone went on Summer tour, decided to stay home and enjoy the Bay Area Summer.... Bob Dylan played the Greek and good old Neil Young came and played guitar the entire show...so there was that moment too that made 88 a magical year....
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Fly
Right, warlocks 89, such a
Right, warlocks 89, such a blur. I forgot about Tampa/St Pete. Weird baseball stadium as I recall...or dont? I got bit by fire ants on my ass sitting on the ground while my spinner friend made me a ticket out of stubs. Karma is tough sometimes. Oh and had tons o fun at the Omni. Forgot that too.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
'88 Summer Tour was the
'88 Summer Tour was the drought year, and weed was scarce!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
So, I listened to all of 9-18
So, I listened to all of 9-18-87 today and I must say I was underwhelmed. Solid show, but the first set was only six songs, and one of them was Walkin'. No bueno. Second set better - the Dew was pretty great, the rest just decent. Not even the best of 87, I'm pretty sure. I'll have to listen to some more 87, but I probably won't since I much prefer 68 to 78 and I only got so much time.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
It is a short set but it
It is a short set but it makes room for the monster second and the short set is almost perfect (albeit for the Walkin, the lone non-stand out of the show, despite it being played very well, as well as a vocal miscue on Masterpiece I think).
I've already said the subject of best GD shows is a silly one because of how different they all are, to name one reason out of hundreds, but to me, there's not a show that year that even comes close to the perfection and build-up of that show, Surf. The build-up is actually what makes it stand out from the other shows of this post coma era.
I get that this is subjective and I also get that you might have vastly different musical taste than me, but I think you probably ought to give it another listen, but this time play it really loud. Maybe you wanted to be 'underwhelmed' when listening to it, at least on some level?
You can't find the momentum of song after song after song to that Morning Dew, especially considering that the climax of that Dew is arguably the greatest moment of that era (apologies to the Death Don't solo at Shoreline as well as some others).
As I said before, there are PLENTY of those shows throughout the earlier eras but not not many in this era. It's one reason I think Dan Healy gave the board and audience tape he made to Rob Eaton to master a genuine matrix recording. I think he wanted to create a special recording of this show and with Eaton's help and talent, that's exactly what happened.
If we are only talking about the post coma era, this show has like 6 'best of' versions of different songs. Try to search out and offer up shows you think can stand up to that. Franklin Page did and to my ears, 7/12/90 RFK comes close.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: The Eggman
I was at Hampton 87 and 88
I was at Hampton 87 and 88 and while I may be in the minority I think Hampton 87 was better , hotter and a really good time.I liked 88 a lot as well.
KK I was at both of those Hampton runs w you and our buddies. Which did you like better?
To this day I still wonder if it was coincidence or if it was not that they did Sugar Mag-Scarlet-Fire both years when that was a sequey typically saved for NYE.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
If you admit that some songs
If you admit that some songs are "better" than other songs, whatever criteria you want to use to decide that, then it stands to reason that a show that has more of those songs will be a "better" show, all else being equal. In other words, the set list can be part of the relative goodness or badness of a show. That show only had a few of the songs that would be needed to create a "great" show, IMO. Yes, there is a build-up over the course of the show, but that just means that some of the stuff earlier in the show is a bit clunky.
Everyone has their own criteria of what makes a great show. You might value tightness, while others seek some measure of loositude. Bucky needs all high energy tunes, whereas others may requite some soulful Jerry ballads. Etc. If you assume basic competence (not always a given in the GD world!), everything else is personal preference - whatever scratches your musical itch.
Just don;t assume that if someone would only listen again, or listen louder, or listen to a different version, or listen in a different state of mind, that they would come around to your viewpoint. Most times, not gonna happen.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I thought Hampton 87 was way
I thought Hampton 87 was way better than 88.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>If you admit that some
>>>If you admit that some songs are "better" than other songs, whatever criteria you want to use to decide that, then it stands to reason that a show that has more of those songs will be a "better" show,
Absolutely not. No, no, no and no again. You are taught in the minor leagues of seeing GD shows not to chase songs but to chase moments. You learn that, depending on the person, somewhere between your, I don't know...30th and 60th shows. It's about how they PLAY. It's always been about that.
Now, does it help, on the night of September 18, 1987, that Jerry Garcia did absolutely gorgeous versions of Sugaree, Candyman and Birdsong in the first set in front of an MSG crowd that was slowly starting to simmer? Sure it does. What about a MONSTER version of Shakedown to open a second set (in the argument for best ever)? Yes, it does help. And a large version of GTDRFB and gigantic, in the argument for best ever version of Watchtower? Yes again.
Does it help that Garcia played one the best versions (best ever for that era) of one of the most powerful and emotional songs of all time in Morning Dew, where there was a meeting of genius and the people of New York City after said genius belted the penultimate "I guess it doesn't matter, anyway!" as if his life was hanging in the fucking balance, to which the MSG faithful responded in kind by losing their ever fucking loving shit? Absolutely, it does.
And does it help that they didn't end the show there, like they would have 99 out of 100 times, but sandwiched a La Bamba in between a Good Lovin to close the show? And when one Jerome Garcia belted out "Soy Capitan!" to a now fully imploding Madison Square Garen crowd, the actual venue itself was reported to have srated to fall apart, reports of bits of the ceiling coming down on folks on the floor? Again...yes.
Finally, does it help that they top it off with arguably the best version Garcia has ever done (with that band) of a song that means a ton to him in Heaven's Door? Fucking yes it does.
I'm leaving out an monster version of Woman R and a beautiful rendition of Terrapin Station becasue we just don't have the time.
So yeah, great versions of great songs like that do mean something. And we do all have our own personal favourites, but most of us would take an increible version of one of our 'meh' songs to a 'meh' version of one of our favorites songs. Cause that's where those moments arise. And there were a ton of them on that night at MSG. And it's all there in the tape waiting to be unearthed.
So, excuse me if I have trouble believing ANYONE who likes the Grateful Dead was 'underwhelmed' after hearing 9/18/87. This is why I suggest you relisten at a much louder volume (I assume you are using one of the great SDBs--I'll be more than happy to send you Eaton's mix where you will not have a single goose bump unaccounted for after you hear Garcia's last line in Dew before the ending jam).
Not tomorrow...but sometime in the next few months.
It's your loss if you choose not to. And if you feel the same way, I'll just chalk it up to one of those mysteries in life that never gets explained like where the joint I rolled in my bedroom disappeard to in 8th grade.
And I'm also asking you to provide me with some show from '87 that you think is better so I can get a glimpse into your subjective ear.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Sorry, not delving into 1987
Sorry, not delving into 1987 any more. I only listen to the GD about twice a week - any more than that kinda lessens the experience for me. I'm gonna listen to what I want to listen to - 68 to 78. I hope to hear decent or better, maybe even great versions of songs I like. I don't really spend much time worried about what's best. Nothing's best.. A lot of those songs were not "great" songs, IMO.. The show would have been "better", IMO, if it had some different songs. I'd rather hear a tune I love with a few glitches in it than a song I hate played perfectly. No matter how well Walkin' or Women Smarter are played, they will never be great songs. IMO.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
Every show has a Walkin or
Every show has a Walkin or something in it's place Surf, same with Women...hate to break it to ya. You can always skip an offending song like that if you wish--I do that with Vinnie's songs the VERY few times I'm listening to that era...it makes the set a ton better.
Weir is half the 2-headed singing monster of that band and there are some nights when you get the Straws and Estimateds and B T Winds to off-set his weaker stuff buy you're always going to get the weaker stuff cause he has to fill half of that 2-headed thing. If a Walkin and Women (both really well played on this night) are going to turn you off of a show then you should absolutely not listen to any shows from this era. Maybe even stay away from the decade of 1980. And don't even think about going into the 90s...ever.
And I asked you to listen to it a few month from now, not now. Maybe you'll do me that solid and do it, and play it loud this time...really loud, who knows.
I could have oversold this show to you to the point where you were expecting '68 to '78 type stuff when in '87, it's a different band. One has to have the '87 ears on to appreciate that era.
Anyway...this topic has been talked to death which I take full responsibility for, obviously.
And Hampton 87 vs 88?
I was at both and think it's a toss up...two fantastic runs at the best indoor venue in GD modern times. For me, To Lay Me Down is an uber important song to me and that version is a peak moment in terms of that time period. But so was the Terrapin in '87, though Terrapin is a totally different thing than To Lay so comparing those things is kind of silly.
I think those runs are a good microcosm of those two particular years. There are some who are going to prefer the 87 run and others the 88 run. To me, 3/27/88 was the best full show of both runs but both runs were all kinds of awesome--if I had to pick one, it'd be 88.
86 Hampton was the year that let everyone know that place wasn't to be skipped again. Everyone talks about the Box bust-out as they should...that was the explosion heard round the world. but for me, that Visions debut is absolutely breathtaking--just pure, unadulterated genius and the diamond of that run.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: KK
KK I was at both of those
KK I was at both of those Hampton runs w you and our buddies. Which did you like better? >>>>
87 was very special. Jerry was Belly to mike busting out like he had not been for a long time...taking us to lofty heights.
Now 88 was also good and I too was shocked they pulled out the Sugar>Scarlet.Fire.
In regards to that 88 MSG run I remember it being so lack luster. last few shows were hitting low points. Mark i believe you said it "sucked".
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
Surfy...obviously you're
Surfy...obviously you're listening wrong. Get it together, man!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Sorry.
Sorry.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Chuck511
>>>that Visions debut is
>>>that Visions debut is absolutely breathtaking--just pure, unadulterated genius and the diamond of that run.
I agree 100% with that Felina. That was my first trip to Hampton & the only Visions Of Johanna I saw. I still get goosebumps when I listen to it. I only went to 3/19, so I missed the Box of Rain breakout the next night, but the Visions makes up for it IMO.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
"86 Hampton was the year that
"86 Hampton was the year that let everyone know that place wasn't to be skipped again."
Some of us figured that out in '79. Immediately my favorite east coast hall.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: krab
^^^^The one night stands,
^^^^The one night stands, except 1980, were very solid^^^^
'84 & '85, the first 2 years for more than one show, were up and down, '86 3rd night and the 2nd set of the Box show were snoozers, followed by 3 really good runs.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
Yeah, I should have said '86
Yeah, I should have said '86 let the 'younger generation' know. I was really only referring to their decision to break out Box at that place, that's what let us know.
But Hampton or Richmond pre-coma must have been like heaven.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>Sorry.
>>>Sorry.
No apologies necessary Surf...for real.
Just play it louder next time...Eaton's work deserves that.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
"except 1980, were very solid
"except 1980, were very solid"
1980 Hampton was one of the worst, if not the worst, Dead show I ever saw in 22 years. Just a god awful train wreck. Pre drums was something like 25 minutes, Garcia had to grab Weir and spin him around and tell him to go into Eyes, and during NFA the crowd right in front of the stage was holding up some passed out guy above their heads. Just bad energy, really ugly. When they came out and did Johnny B. Goode for the encore (what seemed like the cheapest option available) my girlfriend gave them the finger, but it really wasn't their fault. Some nights everything just refuses to click.
And then 1981 was one of the best experiences I ever had at a show, top 5 of all time.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
You never give up, Felina - I
You never give up, Felina - I'll give you that.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lance minimum goad Newberry
>>>No matter how well Walkin'
>>>No matter how well Walkin' or Women Smarter are played, they will never be great songs. IMO<<<
We all have our personal preferences, but I think the early renditions of Woman Are Smarter in '81 & '82 were damn good. I can think of two that I'm happy to listen to any time I come across them, 9/11/81 & 2/17/82, and I've come across those two shows very often over all the years and never been sorry to hear them.
In those years the song was played gently with an easy floating groove (as apposed to the way they played just about everything in the era this thread is covering) which allowed Jerry's solos to be amazingly articulate and subtly brilliant.
As for Walkin' Blues, it was never a favorite, but the one they played with Boz Scaggs in SF in '82 was damn good.
As for '88 or any other year near there, I have nothing to say, so please excuse the interruption and carry on.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>>You never give up, Felina
>>>You never give up, Felina - I'll give you that.
It's not to get that last word in or anything. It's to get you to give that show another listen 6 months from now.
There is a possibility, though, that I've accomplished the opposite of that.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: felina
>>> & 2/17/82
>>> & 2/17/82
That's one of my very favorite versions.
I fucking adore that first set.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
Nothing wrong with Women are
Nothing wrong with Women are Smarter, but it was first set material and should never have taken up valuable real estate in the second set.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
This thread (which will reach
This thread (which will reach triple figure figures after the next post) inspired me to listen to the now infamous 9/18/88.
IMHO for an 88 shoe, this one kicks some serious butt. Seriously. Post rhythm devils, it would be hard to find a more sustained energy burst.
While the La Bamba certainly adds icing to the cake, the whole second set has that X factor going on in spades.
All of this has already been stated. The (not so hidden) agenda for this post, is to get to the next entry.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
Now 4 that much anticipated
Now 4 that much anticipated (at least 4 some) moment that some (or at least a few) have been (somewhat) eagerly waiting 4:
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Actually your prev. post was
Actually your prev. post was 100 - you're one off.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ausonius
I think you meant 9/18/87? No
I think you meant 9/18/87? No La Bamba's in '88.
And that is a great example of Women R Smarter taking up space in the second set that could have been better served by another song. One of my complaints about an otherwise great show.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
Let's at least get some clips
Let's at least get some clips up in here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILH_4bUG0uQ
9/18/88 II.
1. Not Fade Away--
2. Scarlet Begonias--
3. Fire On The Mountain--
4. Woman R Smarter--
5. Drums--
6. Space--
7. The Other One--
8. Wharf Rat--
9. Throwing Stones--
10. Not Fade Away Reprise
11. E: Black Muddy River
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
>>> Actually your prev. post
>>> Actually your prev. post was 100 - you're one off.
U R 100% correct!
Hopefully this will make up 4 the previous error.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Nope; yer still wrong.
Nope; yer still wrong.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
>>> Nope; yer still wrong.
>>> Nope; yer still wrong.
Like who knew posting a sign reflecting a thread count would B so complicated.
With the theory that attempting something a third time could potentially B the charm, I'm a gonna give it one more try.
If this fails, I will walk away truly shamed. On the other hand, 'line up a long shot maybe try it two times, maybe more.'
With that in mind & without any further ado:
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dave
>>> I think you meant 9/18
>>> I think you meant 9/18/87? No La Bamba's in '88.
I was having a hard enough time figuring out the thread count.
Now I am being asked 2 remember which shoe was played in what year in the late 80's?
Seriously?
OK the shoe I was refering 2 did indeed happen in 1987.
As proof, I submit the following set list into evidence:
Madison Square Garden, New York, NY (9/18/87)
Set 1: Hell in a Bucket - Sugaree - Walkin' Blues - Candyman - Masterpiece -Bird Song
Set 2: Shakedown Street > Man Smart / Woman Smarter - Terrapin Station > Rhythm Devils > Space >
Goin' Down the Road Feelin' Bad > All Along the Watchtower > Morning Dew > Good Lovin' >
La Bamba > Good Lovin'
Encore: Knockin' on Heaven's Door