TMV = Telluride Mountain Village (Colorado home rule municipality)
TMVOA = Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association (glorified HOA that all residents and businesses of TMV belong to and pay dues)
Telski = Telluride Ski and Golf Company (Telluride Ski Area operator)
I believe Telski basically founded the TMV and TMVOA back in the early 80's; creating the governing structure and HOA for various purposes including the operation of the free-to-the public gondola (that has an annual operating expense of about $3.5 million). Telski essentially stacked the deck early to provision itself more power within the TMVOA in terms of the proportion of votes and the power to veto. This may have been somewhat necessary very early on, but now the situation has become grossly imbalanced. I was unaware of just how much so until reading the "Friends of TMVOA" website:
In the 2020 election, Telski cast 79.5% of the votes for the Residential Member and 86% of the votes for the Commercial Member. Although the Lodging Member was not up for election in 2020, Telski controls 314 votes out of a total of 981 eligible votes. If only half the eligible voters in fact vote, which is historically the case, then Telski would control the lodging member as well. Thus, Telski controls all the voting members of TMVOA. To put it another way, Telski, a for profit entity, controls a non profit entity, TMVOA, that was created for the public benefit of the owners of Mountain Village property.
Ski town, controlled by the ski resort? Sounds about white. I can't afford to visit, much less live there but I'm sorry if this is causing you hardship.
In one of Anthony Bourdain's later show episodes, he was on some far-flung isolated beach and sadly stated, "One soon day, only the very rich will get to experience this."
Colorado ski towns are now starting to implode due to lack of affordable housing to house employees who work in said towns. So, there's definitely a "revolution" going on at the grass roots level on this front from the "working class"; however, what I find interesting about the TMVOA issue is that if it gains any legs, it'll be a "revolt" initiated by residents of one of the wealthiest towns in the US against a controlling corporate interest.
Personally, it's not causing me hardship directly. I don't live in the TMV, but in the tiny town of Ophir where we have a General Assembly (Town Meeting) format, so it's no skin off of my nose regarding the goings on in the TMV ... it's just that I was made aware of this effort to oppose the current paradigm recently & found the total control of the HOA by a private corporate entity to be off the charts.
I've read Downhill Slide - it is a great book! ... although it's about 20 years old & would be interested to see a second edition re: current times.
It is unfortunate about how only the very rich get to experience some of the treasures that ought to be more accessible to everyone. The greater Telluride region could've easily been a top 10 National Park had capitalism not arrived here first. At the same time, there are HUGE swaths of public lands surrounding the developed private land. Unfortunately, those who control the private land effectively control long term access to public lands by virtue of owning the nearby real estate and "lodging". So, it's day trips or camping if you don't have the $$. Having said all that, it is because of this disparity that I believe it's imperative to implement the most "socialistic" laws and regulations to afford the most widespread access. Or put another way: that which is the opposite of a gated community.
>>> would be interested to see a second edition re: current times.
Well, there shouldn't be things like this to discuss in the first place. But that's life. In case you haven't noticed, it is cruel and uncaring. You can't reason with evil, son. Evil wants what it wants, and it won't stop until it's won or you kill it. To kill it means to be meaner than evil. That's gonna be your last lesson, son, to learn to be meaner than evil and still love your family and enjoy a sunrise.-Yellowstone
^ Perhaps I failed to convey an important piece of information in that the TMV allows for non-resident voting rights. I'm not 100% sure if this provision carries over from the municipality (TMV) to the HOA (TMVOA), but I suspect it does. In which case, the ski company (Telski) happens to be invested in a substantial amount of both residential and commercial real estate. Thus, they are afforded the respective votes in HOA wide elections; in addition to their disproportionately allocated representation on the TMVOA board.
So, if my understanding is correct, even if all residential property owners were to vote, Telski would still likely hold what might be a majority voice in the "electorate" itself - apart from the board.
Again, I'm not necessarily advocating for the residents of the TMV in the sense that they're the wealthiest of the wealthy, and should've known what they're getting into (even though it's quite an elaborate mouse trap), but I do believe they have legs to stand on in so far as a "revolt" to re-do the ground rules to be more equitable.
Nonetheless, I'm advocating for the model as being bad for the Democracy and individual housing rights in general. I believe housing ought to be considered a "primary property right" first and foremost vs a commodity. Not suggesting people are entitled to free housing, but the law / regulations ought to reflect that shelter is a necessity; let alone the way it's tethered to the voices in representative government.
As to me personally, I'm a resident of the same county. The gondola is a party to the existing operating agreement that allows the gondola to be used as a form of free transportation, but is set to expire in 2027. TMVOA is currently responsible for the operating costs & some of the major stakeholders in the region are starting to explore a new intergovernmental agreement once TMVOA's obligation is completed. As a county resident, I'm concerned TMVOA's seat that the table is actually a proxy for Telski (essentially affording them "two seats") and their myopic interests.
On a somewhat related theme, the Town of Alta just imposed a $25 parking fee for cars....
From the story (requires a subscription) - This year just about everyone driving up to Alta on the weekends can expect to pay $25 just to park.
Alta Ski Area revealed in April that it would be charging everyone except certain passholders and staff to park in its lots. Then last week the Town of Alta took any remaining free parking off the board when it announced that spots along the north side of Highway 210 and in any of the lots it controls will also require a permit on the weekends.
The plan has rankled people in all corners, from backcountry trekkers to resort skiers, from homeowners to business owners.
“There’s no question it’s going to be inconvenient for everybody,” Alta mayor Harris Sondak told The Salt Lake Tribune.
“I’m not touting this as a great solution,” he added. “This is the best solution that we’ve been able to come up with.”
At the center of the issue is a parking shortage.
Why is Alta charging for parking?
The Town of Alta is at the end of Little Cottonwood Canyon, squeezed between the Lone Peak Wilderness and the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest. Its population has doubled in the past 10 years, from 200 to 400 residents, reflecting the growth of the Salt Lake Valley as a whole. Those residents need places to park. So do the increasing number of people making the 12-mile drive up the canyon to access the snowy playgrounds that abut the town. The ski area has been heralded as one of the best in the world in terms of snow quality and terrain. And just outside its borders, Grizzly Gulch holds some of the most beginner-friendly cross country trails on the Wasatch Front in addition to serving as a gateway to more challenging terrain.
The canyon had become so congested in recent years that the Utah Department of Transportation is weighing two major projects that could provide some relief: building a gondola or widening the road to allow for a dedicated bus lane. And those ideas came about even before the pandemic. Last winter, fewer people carpooled or took buses for fear of contagion. At the same time, outdoor recreation — and downhill and cross country skiing in particular — experienced a surge of interest from people weary of sheltering in place. People began arriving earlier and earlier, which interrupted snow plowing and road-clearance work in the town. Those who arrived later risked making the drive for nothing. Ski area spokesperson Andria Huskinson said she was part of a crew who had to turn people away from the resort for 12 straight weekends because of a lack of parking.
There are a lot of issues at any snow resort that pits homeowners vs workers vs resort management and I suspect that there are no good solutions, only less bad ones. Like it or not, the resort is the economic engine that floats all of the boats and when the resort is successful, property values increase, businesses do better, etc. Take away the resort and all those other things fall apart.
Perhaps the most democratic answer is for groups of people to us the co-op playbook of Mad River Glen. While short of the amenities that most destination resorts have, all of what they have is governed by all co-op owners on a one person/one vote basis. Owners also are responsible for helping out when labor is needed as well as putting up assessments when a bad year drains the operating accounts. Everyone has skin in the game, good times and bad. I have often though, with so many abandoned areas all over the place, that this could work where a strict retail organization would not. You want the glitz and glamour, break out your AMEX Black Card and have at it. You want to ski hard and put in your time and money to keep a skiing of old experience, join a co-op.
Then last week the Town of Alta took any remaining free parking off the board when it announced that spots along the north side of Highway 210 and in any of the lots it controls will also require a permit on the weekends<<<
Unfortunately, most ski towns have adopted laws and policies that are becoming increasingly "regressive" in so far as the way in which they make it more difficult for those without the economic wherewithal to "ante up" to some of the most basic issues of access such as parking. I still get it about residents needing a place to park, but how much of the problem arose because developers weren't mandated by government to carve out sufficient space for parking in new projects?
Perhaps the most democratic answer is for groups of people to us the co-op playbook<<<
Who are you and what have you done with skifurthur?!?
Assuming this is a "Red Knuckles" routine, I'd be all for a coop that is run equitably. All kidding aside, I believe the ski company has been starting to flex its muscle in the affordable housing arena to tilt the scales to its own favor. Some of which are out in the open, but suspect there's plenty of behind-the-scenes manipulation taking place. But more to your point, I think it behooves ski areas to start thinking in "cooperative" terms. I just say the following screenshot posted in a local FB group. Apparently, the Aspen ski company is now offering incentives to property owners to house its employees.
Like it or not, the resort is the economic engine that floats all of the boats and when the resort is successful, property values increase, businesses do better, etc. Take away the resort and all those other things fall apart.<<<
I always get a kick out of when a person defending the Telski's actions says "Without the ski lifts, Telluride would be just another Ouray" ... as if it somehow equates to Ottumwa, IA!
While ski area operators do provide a core economic engine, unfortunately, it often overheats due to ill-advised aftermarket turbo-charging; often creating systemic imbalances that are difficult to address. Moreover, much of the remediation efforts often act as building blocks to move the "economic floor" upwards that require even more staffing and resources to sustain the new level of equilibrium ... and it spirals out of control. I believe ski area operations are in dire need of economic regulation and oversight that could effectively only come from outside the confines of a coop model.
>> I believe housing ought to be considered a "primary property right" first and foremost vs a commodity. Not suggesting people are entitled to free housing, but the law / regulations ought to reflect that shelter is a necessity; let alone the way it's tethered to the voices in representative government. <<
You believe ski-in/ski-out housing is a "primary property right"? That's like demanding tropical weather at 8750'
Who are you and what have you done with skifurthur?!?
I'm the same as I've ever been. I think the difficulty is your perception that I am a resort owner shill at all times. I was part of the ski press and am very familiar with the problems that come with trying to operate a business that is as capital intensive as a snow resort. Much like the concert business these days, resorts only stay profitable when they target the top tier spenders and those spenders want amenities out the wazoo. A business has to focus on making a profit. If they don't, shareholders have a right to demand a change to that focus, regardless of what the locals think and how they are impacted. I agree that isn't the fairest thing in the world but it is reality and it isn't going to change. That being said, I also yearn for the old fashioned skiing experience which includes, and I say this lovingly, the local dirt bags that did whatever it took with things like grabbing ketchup packets in the lodge to make tomato soup with and working 2 jobs to make ends barely meet as long as one of the jobs came with a season pass and didn't interfere on powder days. Many of those people remain friends of mine still although some were smart enough to grab some property when they could and aren't quite as poor as they used to be. I don't see major resorts changing to co-op mode ever. The only ones I can see that working at are areas that are currently about to go under or have been closed for years already. Even with a co-op model one has to be ready to possibly fork over some large assessments because things like lifts are very expensive and finding parts for old lifts is almost impossible already. You can bet when a lift had to be replaced at Mad River some of the owners were not happy that they had to pony up 30k each to buy and old lift, disassemble it, transport it to Mad River and then put it back together. If a new lift was bought, the assessment would have been 80k at a minimum. The co-op voted for buying an old lift. There are plenty of areas that this model could work at as long as everyone understands what each of them HAVE to do when needed. It takes a certain mindset to do that.
Yes and no. Silverton's clients are pretty much in the top 10% (or maybe top 5%) of snow sliders. That is actually a small portion of those who ski or snowboard. Lift tickets are reasonable but one needs to have various avalanche safety equipment with them, and know how to use it, before they hit the mountain. That alone can add another $500 in cost.
Great place for those who can but I consider it a specialty market area and most of the general public is completely excluded.
"It's clear the future of Little Cottonwood Canyon is a charged issue. Drive through the neighborhoods in Sandy or Cottonwood Heights pushed up against the mountains, and it's not hard to spot yard signs — some for, and some against, the $590 million gondola that's being touted as a solution to the paralyzing skier traffic in the area.
The debate became integral to the Sandy mayoral race. Among eight candidates, the two finalists, Sandy Councilwoman Monica Zoltanski and Jim Bennett, were both endorsed by the Friends of Little Cottonwood Canyon, a new group that has been vocal in its opposition toward the gondola.
Bennett has since conceded, and though she only holds a 33-vote lead, Zoltanski is poised to take the helm of one of Salt Lake City's largest and fastest-growing suburbs. Where the argument between a towering, 8-mile gondola or a significantly wider road with an enhanced bus service appears to be one-sided. At least according to some Sandy residents and officials."
Thanks for the local boots on the ground reporting, Slick. I lived there quite a while (2 yrs in Cottonwood Heights, 17 yrs in Sandy) and now more loosely follow the goings-on. I am impressed/not surprised that the immediately local politicians are against the tram plan but it does at least seem like the powers that be are in favor. I have been gone from there for several years but it sounds like the canyons are getting LOTS of extra traffic and people whom understandably want to enjoy The Wasatch. There is little if any room for road expansion and with Little Cottonwood Canyon Road in particular being the most avalanche-prone road in the U.S. (North America?), who knows what the future may bring. At any rate, I really enjoyed and was ecstatic to take advantage of the EZ half-day morning passes at Alta for under $20 for the first few years I lived there. I also loved 'Ski Free at 3' as I could leave my house at 2 (and be back home by 5:30 to make dinner) to make the lift by 3 and ski 5-6 runs underneath Sunnyside which was typically some great "under-touched" terrain. Gone are the days.
>>>>> I was part of the ski press and am very familiar with the problems that come with trying to operate a business that is as capital intensive as a snow resort.
To Tony's point, it looks like most if not all the resorts won't be opening for Thanksgiving. Lack of snow. Had a very promising October but November isn't helping. Being open Thanksgiving weekend portends well for the resorts if they're open.
"This October was actually one of the best in the state in the past 17 years in terms of snowfall, according to Evan Thayer, a Utah forecaster for OpenSnow. So the blame lies squarely with the state’s recent warm temperatures, which have melted the natural snow and largely prevented ski areas from firing up their snowmaking operations."
Today's story from the SL Tribune - The start of Utah’s ski and snowboard season has officially been put on pause.
A third of the state’s 15 resorts hoped to have their lifts rolling by this weekend. As of Wednesday afternoon, none anticipated being open before Nov. 23, two days before Thanksgiving.
Alta Ski Area was the last to fall. It announced Wednesday afternoon that it would not meet its goal of opening Saturday. Instead it is aiming for a Nov. 24 opener.
Though many backcountry skiers have enjoyed the snow on Alta’s upper slopes over the past month and more was falling Wednesday, grass can still be seen poking through in the base area.
Park City Mountain Resort broke the seal Friday when it announced it was postponing its opener, planned for this Friday. Brian Head Resort and Solitude, both also initially hoping to be open Friday, announced this week that they would refocus on a later date. Brighton, usually one of the first to open, also will not have its lifts turning this weekend.
Brian Head has not set a new opening date, while Solitude issued a news release Wednesday noting its new target is Nov. 23 — just before the Thanksgiving holiday. Of the new anticipated opening dates, that is the earliest, but its management has promised to open even earlier if possible.
“With colder temps on the way, we will be making snow at every available window,” Amber Broadaway, Solitude’s president and COO said in the release. “If conditions justify opening earlier than November 23, we will be ready to go.”
But even those that were initially eyeing a holiday-weekend opening are also reevaluating their coverage. Snowbasin is pushing back its Nov. 24 opener to an undetermined date. Cherry Peak, which was hoping to capture the Turkey Day crowd, reset the start of its season to sometime between Dec. 10-15. Snowbird, meanwhile, is holding fast to its Dec. 1 opener but will continue to evaluate conditions, a spokesperson said.
As for the gondola, you're right in that many local leaders dislike it, but I think some major funding would come from the legislature, as since it's so laden with rural legislators who hate SLC, they may just try to shove it down our throats.
The snow issue (and/or it's lack thereof) is yet another increasingly problematic situation. There may be good/great years tucked into the longer range warmer/drier trend and forecasting for the West in general. In reality, at least when I lived there, there never really was reliably decent skiing until early/mid-Dec at best anyway.
I'm the same as I've ever been. I think the difficulty is your perception that I am a resort owner shill at all times.<<<
FTR: while I do think you tend to lean toward siding with "institutions", I've never believed you to be a shill - let alone at all times. Kinda pressed for time at the moment, so can't respond fully otherwise.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Strangha
A little background might be
A little background might be good.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
A little background might be
A little background might be good. <<<
TMV = Telluride Mountain Village (Colorado home rule municipality)
TMVOA = Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association (glorified HOA that all residents and businesses of TMV belong to and pay dues)
Telski = Telluride Ski and Golf Company (Telluride Ski Area operator)
I believe Telski basically founded the TMV and TMVOA back in the early 80's; creating the governing structure and HOA for various purposes including the operation of the free-to-the public gondola (that has an annual operating expense of about $3.5 million). Telski essentially stacked the deck early to provision itself more power within the TMVOA in terms of the proportion of votes and the power to veto. This may have been somewhat necessary very early on, but now the situation has become grossly imbalanced. I was unaware of just how much so until reading the "Friends of TMVOA" website:
https://friendsoftmvoa.org/about/
In the 2020 election, Telski cast 79.5% of the votes for the Residential Member and 86% of the votes for the Commercial Member. Although the Lodging Member was not up for election in 2020, Telski controls 314 votes out of a total of 981 eligible votes. If only half the eligible voters in fact vote, which is historically the case, then Telski would control the lodging member as well. Thus, Telski controls all the voting members of TMVOA. To put it another way, Telski, a for profit entity, controls a non profit entity, TMVOA, that was created for the public benefit of the owners of Mountain Village property.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ken D.
Colorado ski town revolution.
Colorado ski town revolution. The outrage. Straight out of Aspen homie.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Highnote
Ski town, controlled by the
Ski town, controlled by the ski resort? Sounds about white. I can't afford to visit, much less live there but I'm sorry if this is causing you hardship.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf
There are books about this
There are books about this kind of thing.
The Downhill Slide, by Hal Clifford is a good a starting point as any.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: GDTRFB
In one of Anthony Bourdain's
In one of Anthony Bourdain's later show episodes, he was on some far-flung isolated beach and sadly stated, "One soon day, only the very rich will get to experience this."
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
Colorado ski towns are now
Colorado ski towns are now starting to implode due to lack of affordable housing to house employees who work in said towns. So, there's definitely a "revolution" going on at the grass roots level on this front from the "working class"; however, what I find interesting about the TMVOA issue is that if it gains any legs, it'll be a "revolt" initiated by residents of one of the wealthiest towns in the US against a controlling corporate interest.
Personally, it's not causing me hardship directly. I don't live in the TMV, but in the tiny town of Ophir where we have a General Assembly (Town Meeting) format, so it's no skin off of my nose regarding the goings on in the TMV ... it's just that I was made aware of this effort to oppose the current paradigm recently & found the total control of the HOA by a private corporate entity to be off the charts.
I've read Downhill Slide - it is a great book! ... although it's about 20 years old & would be interested to see a second edition re: current times.
It is unfortunate about how only the very rich get to experience some of the treasures that ought to be more accessible to everyone. The greater Telluride region could've easily been a top 10 National Park had capitalism not arrived here first. At the same time, there are HUGE swaths of public lands surrounding the developed private land. Unfortunately, those who control the private land effectively control long term access to public lands by virtue of owning the nearby real estate and "lodging". So, it's day trips or camping if you don't have the $$. Having said all that, it is because of this disparity that I believe it's imperative to implement the most "socialistic" laws and regulations to afford the most widespread access. Or put another way: that which is the opposite of a gated community.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ltk173
>>> would be interested to
>>> would be interested to see a second edition re: current times.
Well, there shouldn't be things like this to discuss in the first place. But that's life. In case you haven't noticed, it is cruel and uncaring. You can't reason with evil, son. Evil wants what it wants, and it won't stop until it's won or you kill it. To kill it means to be meaner than evil. That's gonna be your last lesson, son, to learn to be meaner than evil and still love your family and enjoy a sunrise.-Yellowstone
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
Isn't meaner than evil even
Isn't meaner than evil even more evil?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
Sounds more like HOA under
Sounds more like HOA under-reach. They have the votes, but are too lazy to vote (even by proxy).
I'm not sure who you're advocating for here, FOM, the people with no votes?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
^ Perhaps I failed to convey
^ Perhaps I failed to convey an important piece of information in that the TMV allows for non-resident voting rights. I'm not 100% sure if this provision carries over from the municipality (TMV) to the HOA (TMVOA), but I suspect it does. In which case, the ski company (Telski) happens to be invested in a substantial amount of both residential and commercial real estate. Thus, they are afforded the respective votes in HOA wide elections; in addition to their disproportionately allocated representation on the TMVOA board.
So, if my understanding is correct, even if all residential property owners were to vote, Telski would still likely hold what might be a majority voice in the "electorate" itself - apart from the board.
Again, I'm not necessarily advocating for the residents of the TMV in the sense that they're the wealthiest of the wealthy, and should've known what they're getting into (even though it's quite an elaborate mouse trap), but I do believe they have legs to stand on in so far as a "revolt" to re-do the ground rules to be more equitable.
Nonetheless, I'm advocating for the model as being bad for the Democracy and individual housing rights in general. I believe housing ought to be considered a "primary property right" first and foremost vs a commodity. Not suggesting people are entitled to free housing, but the law / regulations ought to reflect that shelter is a necessity; let alone the way it's tethered to the voices in representative government.
As to me personally, I'm a resident of the same county. The gondola is a party to the existing operating agreement that allows the gondola to be used as a form of free transportation, but is set to expire in 2027. TMVOA is currently responsible for the operating costs & some of the major stakeholders in the region are starting to explore a new intergovernmental agreement once TMVOA's obligation is completed. As a county resident, I'm concerned TMVOA's seat that the table is actually a proxy for Telski (essentially affording them "two seats") and their myopic interests.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Strangha
On a somewhat related theme,
On a somewhat related theme, the Town of Alta just imposed a $25 parking fee for cars....
From the story (requires a subscription) - This year just about everyone driving up to Alta on the weekends can expect to pay $25 just to park.
Alta Ski Area revealed in April that it would be charging everyone except certain passholders and staff to park in its lots. Then last week the Town of Alta took any remaining free parking off the board when it announced that spots along the north side of Highway 210 and in any of the lots it controls will also require a permit on the weekends.
The plan has rankled people in all corners, from backcountry trekkers to resort skiers, from homeowners to business owners.
“There’s no question it’s going to be inconvenient for everybody,” Alta mayor Harris Sondak told The Salt Lake Tribune.
“I’m not touting this as a great solution,” he added. “This is the best solution that we’ve been able to come up with.”
At the center of the issue is a parking shortage.
Why is Alta charging for parking?
The Town of Alta is at the end of Little Cottonwood Canyon, squeezed between the Lone Peak Wilderness and the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest. Its population has doubled in the past 10 years, from 200 to 400 residents, reflecting the growth of the Salt Lake Valley as a whole. Those residents need places to park. So do the increasing number of people making the 12-mile drive up the canyon to access the snowy playgrounds that abut the town. The ski area has been heralded as one of the best in the world in terms of snow quality and terrain. And just outside its borders, Grizzly Gulch holds some of the most beginner-friendly cross country trails on the Wasatch Front in addition to serving as a gateway to more challenging terrain.
The canyon had become so congested in recent years that the Utah Department of Transportation is weighing two major projects that could provide some relief: building a gondola or widening the road to allow for a dedicated bus lane. And those ideas came about even before the pandemic. Last winter, fewer people carpooled or took buses for fear of contagion. At the same time, outdoor recreation — and downhill and cross country skiing in particular — experienced a surge of interest from people weary of sheltering in place. People began arriving earlier and earlier, which interrupted snow plowing and road-clearance work in the town. Those who arrived later risked making the drive for nothing. Ski area spokesperson Andria Huskinson said she was part of a crew who had to turn people away from the resort for 12 straight weekends because of a lack of parking.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: skifurthur
There are a lot of issues at
There are a lot of issues at any snow resort that pits homeowners vs workers vs resort management and I suspect that there are no good solutions, only less bad ones. Like it or not, the resort is the economic engine that floats all of the boats and when the resort is successful, property values increase, businesses do better, etc. Take away the resort and all those other things fall apart.
Perhaps the most democratic answer is for groups of people to us the co-op playbook of Mad River Glen. While short of the amenities that most destination resorts have, all of what they have is governed by all co-op owners on a one person/one vote basis. Owners also are responsible for helping out when labor is needed as well as putting up assessments when a bad year drains the operating accounts. Everyone has skin in the game, good times and bad. I have often though, with so many abandoned areas all over the place, that this could work where a strict retail organization would not. You want the glitz and glamour, break out your AMEX Black Card and have at it. You want to ski hard and put in your time and money to keep a skiing of old experience, join a co-op.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf
MAD RIVER GLEN
MAD RIVER GLEN
SKI IT IF YOU CAN
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ltk173
>>>> "primary property right"
>>>> "primary property right" first and foremost vs a commodity
Hey man, you're harsh'n on my Credit Default Swap buzz, man.
Don't be a buzzkill man.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: skifurthur
MAD RIVER GLEN
So true...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
Then last week the Town of
Then last week the Town of Alta took any remaining free parking off the board when it announced that spots along the north side of Highway 210 and in any of the lots it controls will also require a permit on the weekends<<<
Unfortunately, most ski towns have adopted laws and policies that are becoming increasingly "regressive" in so far as the way in which they make it more difficult for those without the economic wherewithal to "ante up" to some of the most basic issues of access such as parking. I still get it about residents needing a place to park, but how much of the problem arose because developers weren't mandated by government to carve out sufficient space for parking in new projects?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
Perhaps the most democratic
Perhaps the most democratic answer is for groups of people to us the co-op playbook<<<
Who are you and what have you done with skifurthur?!?
Assuming this is a "Red Knuckles" routine, I'd be all for a coop that is run equitably. All kidding aside, I believe the ski company has been starting to flex its muscle in the affordable housing arena to tilt the scales to its own favor. Some of which are out in the open, but suspect there's plenty of behind-the-scenes manipulation taking place. But more to your point, I think it behooves ski areas to start thinking in "cooperative" terms. I just say the following screenshot posted in a local FB group. Apparently, the Aspen ski company is now offering incentives to property owners to house its employees.
Like it or not, the resort is the economic engine that floats all of the boats and when the resort is successful, property values increase, businesses do better, etc. Take away the resort and all those other things fall apart.<<<
I always get a kick out of when a person defending the Telski's actions says "Without the ski lifts, Telluride would be just another Ouray" ... as if it somehow equates to Ottumwa, IA!
While ski area operators do provide a core economic engine, unfortunately, it often overheats due to ill-advised aftermarket turbo-charging; often creating systemic imbalances that are difficult to address. Moreover, much of the remediation efforts often act as building blocks to move the "economic floor" upwards that require even more staffing and resources to sustain the new level of equilibrium ... and it spirals out of control. I believe ski area operations are in dire need of economic regulation and oversight that could effectively only come from outside the confines of a coop model.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
* Assuming this is a not "Red
* Assuming this is a not "Red Knuckles" routine
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: GDTRFB
Parking reservations and pay
Parking reservations and pay scheme on weekends and holidays in place at Alta this season. Good Timez.
https://unofficialnetworks.com/2021/11/15/alta-to-require-parking-reserv...
UT politicians and construction companies are licking their chops over a proposed gondola system in Little Cottonwood Canyon as well.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
>> I believe housing ought to
>> I believe housing ought to be considered a "primary property right" first and foremost vs a commodity. Not suggesting people are entitled to free housing, but the law / regulations ought to reflect that shelter is a necessity; let alone the way it's tethered to the voices in representative government. <<
You believe ski-in/ski-out housing is a "primary property right"? That's like demanding tropical weather at 8750'
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: skifurthur
Who are you and what have you
I'm the same as I've ever been. I think the difficulty is your perception that I am a resort owner shill at all times. I was part of the ski press and am very familiar with the problems that come with trying to operate a business that is as capital intensive as a snow resort. Much like the concert business these days, resorts only stay profitable when they target the top tier spenders and those spenders want amenities out the wazoo. A business has to focus on making a profit. If they don't, shareholders have a right to demand a change to that focus, regardless of what the locals think and how they are impacted. I agree that isn't the fairest thing in the world but it is reality and it isn't going to change. That being said, I also yearn for the old fashioned skiing experience which includes, and I say this lovingly, the local dirt bags that did whatever it took with things like grabbing ketchup packets in the lodge to make tomato soup with and working 2 jobs to make ends barely meet as long as one of the jobs came with a season pass and didn't interfere on powder days. Many of those people remain friends of mine still although some were smart enough to grab some property when they could and aren't quite as poor as they used to be. I don't see major resorts changing to co-op mode ever. The only ones I can see that working at are areas that are currently about to go under or have been closed for years already. Even with a co-op model one has to be ready to possibly fork over some large assessments because things like lifts are very expensive and finding parts for old lifts is almost impossible already. You can bet when a lift had to be replaced at Mad River some of the owners were not happy that they had to pony up 30k each to buy and old lift, disassemble it, transport it to Mad River and then put it back together. If a new lift was bought, the assessment would have been 80k at a minimum. The co-op voted for buying an old lift. There are plenty of areas that this model could work at as long as everyone understands what each of them HAVE to do when needed. It takes a certain mindset to do that.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Strangha
Mighty fine. Mighty fine. Red
Mighty fine. Mighty fine. Red Rules!!!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf
The Brills cracked the code
The Brills cracked the code in Silverton.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: skifurthur
The Brills cracked the code
Yes and no. Silverton's clients are pretty much in the top 10% (or maybe top 5%) of snow sliders. That is actually a small portion of those who ski or snowboard. Lift tickets are reasonable but one needs to have various avalanche safety equipment with them, and know how to use it, before they hit the mountain. That alone can add another $500 in cost.
Great place for those who can but I consider it a specialty market area and most of the general public is completely excluded.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Strangha
Story on the gondola issue
Story on the gondola issue from the church-owned paper and TV station appeared today.
https://www.ksl.com/article/50284482/some-local-leaders-oppose-a-little-...
"It's clear the future of Little Cottonwood Canyon is a charged issue. Drive through the neighborhoods in Sandy or Cottonwood Heights pushed up against the mountains, and it's not hard to spot yard signs — some for, and some against, the $590 million gondola that's being touted as a solution to the paralyzing skier traffic in the area.
The debate became integral to the Sandy mayoral race. Among eight candidates, the two finalists, Sandy Councilwoman Monica Zoltanski and Jim Bennett, were both endorsed by the Friends of Little Cottonwood Canyon, a new group that has been vocal in its opposition toward the gondola.
Bennett has since conceded, and though she only holds a 33-vote lead, Zoltanski is poised to take the helm of one of Salt Lake City's largest and fastest-growing suburbs. Where the argument between a towering, 8-mile gondola or a significantly wider road with an enhanced bus service appears to be one-sided. At least according to some Sandy residents and officials."
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: GDTRFB
Thanks Slick. I lived there
Thanks for the local boots on the ground reporting, Slick. I lived there quite a while (2 yrs in Cottonwood Heights, 17 yrs in Sandy) and now more loosely follow the goings-on. I am impressed/not surprised that the immediately local politicians are against the tram plan but it does at least seem like the powers that be are in favor. I have been gone from there for several years but it sounds like the canyons are getting LOTS of extra traffic and people whom understandably want to enjoy The Wasatch. There is little if any room for road expansion and with Little Cottonwood Canyon Road in particular being the most avalanche-prone road in the U.S. (North America?), who knows what the future may bring. At any rate, I really enjoyed and was ecstatic to take advantage of the EZ half-day morning passes at Alta for under $20 for the first few years I lived there. I also loved 'Ski Free at 3' as I could leave my house at 2 (and be back home by 5:30 to make dinner) to make the lift by 3 and ski 5-6 runs underneath Sunnyside which was typically some great "under-touched" terrain. Gone are the days.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Strangha
>>>>> I was part of the ski
>>>>> I was part of the ski press and am very familiar with the problems that come with trying to operate a business that is as capital intensive as a snow resort.
To Tony's point, it looks like most if not all the resorts won't be opening for Thanksgiving. Lack of snow. Had a very promising October but November isn't helping. Being open Thanksgiving weekend portends well for the resorts if they're open.
"This October was actually one of the best in the state in the past 17 years in terms of snowfall, according to Evan Thayer, a Utah forecaster for OpenSnow. So the blame lies squarely with the state’s recent warm temperatures, which have melted the natural snow and largely prevented ski areas from firing up their snowmaking operations."
Today's story from the SL Tribune - The start of Utah’s ski and snowboard season has officially been put on pause.
A third of the state’s 15 resorts hoped to have their lifts rolling by this weekend. As of Wednesday afternoon, none anticipated being open before Nov. 23, two days before Thanksgiving.
Alta Ski Area was the last to fall. It announced Wednesday afternoon that it would not meet its goal of opening Saturday. Instead it is aiming for a Nov. 24 opener.
Though many backcountry skiers have enjoyed the snow on Alta’s upper slopes over the past month and more was falling Wednesday, grass can still be seen poking through in the base area.
Park City Mountain Resort broke the seal Friday when it announced it was postponing its opener, planned for this Friday. Brian Head Resort and Solitude, both also initially hoping to be open Friday, announced this week that they would refocus on a later date. Brighton, usually one of the first to open, also will not have its lifts turning this weekend.
Brian Head has not set a new opening date, while Solitude issued a news release Wednesday noting its new target is Nov. 23 — just before the Thanksgiving holiday. Of the new anticipated opening dates, that is the earliest, but its management has promised to open even earlier if possible.
“With colder temps on the way, we will be making snow at every available window,” Amber Broadaway, Solitude’s president and COO said in the release. “If conditions justify opening earlier than November 23, we will be ready to go.”
But even those that were initially eyeing a holiday-weekend opening are also reevaluating their coverage. Snowbasin is pushing back its Nov. 24 opener to an undetermined date. Cherry Peak, which was hoping to capture the Turkey Day crowd, reset the start of its season to sometime between Dec. 10-15. Snowbird, meanwhile, is holding fast to its Dec. 1 opener but will continue to evaluate conditions, a spokesperson said.
As for the gondola, you're right in that many local leaders dislike it, but I think some major funding would come from the legislature, as since it's so laden with rural legislators who hate SLC, they may just try to shove it down our throats.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: GDTRFB
The snow issue (and/or it's
The snow issue (and/or it's lack thereof) is yet another increasingly problematic situation. There may be good/great years tucked into the longer range warmer/drier trend and forecasting for the West in general. In reality, at least when I lived there, there never really was reliably decent skiing until early/mid-Dec at best anyway.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
I'm the same as I've ever
I'm the same as I've ever been. I think the difficulty is your perception that I am a resort owner shill at all times.<<<
FTR: while I do think you tend to lean toward siding with "institutions", I've never believed you to be a shill - let alone at all times. Kinda pressed for time at the moment, so can't respond fully otherwise.