Democratic Debates - Round 2

Chinese downhill

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6EXQ2rIpM6E

We just finished up a nice Chinese dinner...  my buddy was relating the various key players to sports figures, so I adapted it to our meal;

Perhaps Bernie is Kung Pao chicken, while Biden is more sweet and sour pork... turns out E. Warren might not be chicken after all, Mayor Pete is mu shu pork, while Pamela Harris is beef with broccoli...

the drinking game just became an eating game! 

After what happened to the GOP in 2016, you'd think the D's would have decided to keep this thing small.

Assuming they had brains, I mean.

It is way too nice an evening* to watch this shit.  Anything important will show up eventually.

*Breeze and sun is below the trees, all good.

Druba, I know the ol Pu Pu Platter came up, who was it

Pick one person and go all-in on Trump until the election. Enough appeasing liberals with policy bullshit. 

Waiting for the end of the debate for the Pu Pu Platter, LOL  

https://relix.com/live/

Claypool & Lennon Delirium, and Flaming Lips 9:00 start

hope the Delirium opens 

I will check back to see who won, and who wound up as the Pu Pu Platter

Looks like Delaney will be represented by the Pu Pu Plater

Delirium = music you can’t sing or dance to

i love it

OK....Marianne Williamson it is.

Didn't she just summon up a demon, or was that a unicorn?  

bernie won the debate. easy. 

warren should be his vp. 

Warren looked much stronger plus she's actually a Democrat. Bernie should do the country a favor and go home and stay there.

lol. bernie’s doing the country many favors, you’re just too dense to realize it. 

Bernie said he wants more robust security on the border. 

Bernie has enough Brooklyn in him to kick Queens boy's butt. Fawk me? No, fawk yoooo. 

Bernie is unelectable.

Do tell. He’s won 20 or so elections so far.

Can he win in Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan?

What would the "founding fathers" have thought about the existence of the various campaigns?

Absolutely. He was within less than a million votes of Donald in the 2016 primary, and wasn’t being taken seriously then either.

Since then, do you think trump’s voter base has:

A: grown

B: shrunk

C: remained stagnant and brain dead?

I don't think his base has changed.  They will vote their platform and have demonstrated that they will turn out to vote.

The question is which one of these Democratic candidates can produce a nationwide vote of all the fence-sitters and usually apathetic non-voters?  I would hope that there is a record turn-out for this election as it is a defacto impeachment.

>Can he win in Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan?<

who can?

they are rigged shithole states.

> they are rigged shithole states.

You sound like Trump

Aside from maybe Florida, there is nothing rigged, and even there likely not..... these are working class states with a split electorate where the "progressive agenda" is DOA. A failure to understand this will lead to a Republican victory in the general, period.

and you sound like a tool.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/31/election-2016-tracking-reports-of-voting...

yeah, nothing to see. all those states have no issues at all.

Woz, I gotta say, I'm surprised by how adamantly anti-Bernie you are. I mean, it's one thing to not like him, another to just completely disparage everything he does because he's not a registered democrat. He's played the game by the rules, right? If the democratic party wants to allow him to run as a democrat, well, then I assume they asked themselves whether or not that was appropriate and decided that it was. If you are behind the democrats as a party, then why not accept that decision? I also don't understand how you can disparage him so radically when basically Bernie in 2016 set the agenda for the democratic party today. Without Bernie there wouldn't be massive talks about universal health care, free education, etc. Can't you at least recognize the ways in which he has greatly benefitted the democratic party?

The problem here isn't Bernie - it's the egocentric democrat roster who are all fighting to get their name in the headline when really, they should all be working together. Party of union? Diversity? Inclusion? And yet you're all stepping all over each other to get to the top. Sounds contradictory to me. Like I've said before, the Dems need to make a ticket. Shuffle the names how you like. IMO, Biden Pres, Warren VP, Sanders State, Buttigieg HUD, Kamala AG, etc. I can pretty much guarantee you that if the dems actually started behaving like a team, rather than the same old narcissistic bullshit as always, they would win in a heartbeat.

No, the problem is:

1) the belief that someone running on Bernie's platform can win sufficient electoral college votes to become president. His platform won't resonate in the swing states.

2) The guy comes across as a crazy old man ranting to "get off me lawn." Unpresidential. Trump gets away with it because he is a racist supported by racists. Bernie just comes across as crazy/

3) He will have no coalition because he isn't a democrat and has no skills for working within a party system. He's just hijacking the Democratic pay for his personal advantage. lastly, I think Bernie is why Hillary lost the election and this country would be in light year's better shape if she were president.

yeah, nothing to see. all those states have no issues at all.

Those states have all manner of issues but they don't come into play if a candidate can't appeal to more than 50.1% of the electorate, but the electorate in those "swing" states (that's why they are called "swing" states) is so closely split a potential candidate needs to appeal to their values. Bernie is a loser in all of those states. Ans so what "Turts" because you call them "shit-hole states with voting issues" you are going to ignore them? That isn't going to win an election and what is paramount today is that Trump is voted out of office. My money says Bernie or Warren running on a "social democratic" ticket is a one way ticket to four more years of Trump.

The former vice president leads Trump among Florida voters by 50 percent to 41 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll published Tuesday ahead of the president’s campaign kickoff rally at Orlando’s Amway Center.

Trump also trails the Vermont senator by a 6-point margin, 48 percent to 42 percent, while head-to-head match-ups pitting the president against other top-polling Democratic rivals are “too close to call,” according to the survey.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/18/2020-florida-poll-trump-biden-...

------------------------------------------------------

i'm all done googling that you are wrong.

Because bitter about Hillary

And all those same polls had Hillary winning too.

She did.

Was that Bernie’s fault too?

How is it Bernie's fault that his idiot supporters voted for Jill Stein & Gary Johnson?

if one had to point to a single, specific reason why Clinton lost one of these states – Wisconsin – it seems much more plausible to point a finger back at the Clinton campaign for her lack of campaigning in that battleground state: Clinton did not visit Wisconsin a single time between the DNC and Election Day, whereas Trump made six stops there. Similarly, Trump made more than twice as many campaign stops in Michigan (13) than Clinton (six).

https://editions.lib.umn.edu/smartpolitics/2018/02/18/jill-stein-and-the...

The issue now is the current election and winning the swing states of Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan.....and maybe toss in Wisconsin. The rest will vote the same they did in 2016. This discussion boils down to whether you think Sanders can win those states and I say no way in hell.

i think he could if not for republican governors/legislature and voter suppression.

fl will be different because felons can now vote again.

> fl will be different because felons can now vote again. <

Except they can't because the Republican legislature passed a bill that says before voting can be restored all fines have to be paid and records show most freed felons in Fla are still on the hook for disproportionately large fines ( as compared to ability to repay) that most will never be able to pay off. It's being challenged in court

> i think he could if not for republican governors/legislature and voter suppression. <

And I think it is the value system of blue collar middle class that will be turned off by hie platform and presentation.

It’s funny how like the shit above gets argued and none of the fuckery like gerrymandering, voter suppression etc is part of the equation or it’s a separate issue all together.

The inside polling information Manafort gave to Kilimnik were from those exact states.

Bernie would’ve 

Hillary should’ve 

BUT, nobody with all the fuckery could’ve 

>  none of the fuckery like gerrymandering, voter suppression etc is part of the equation or it’s a separate issue all together. <

It is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with but with recent SCOTUS rulings on gerrymandering and  Senate in action on bills to try and fix the election system the only answer is to win elections by significant enough margins to overcome outside influences.

No doubt...

I’m talking about why ANY candidate vs trump was going to lose those states was all due to the fuckery.

And the socio-economics. Those states are left behind by the technology revolution and the inevitable change to our economy with respect to manufacturing. Left them vulnerable to the appeal of Trump. That's why I don't see a progressive agenda having a chance there.

I don't know, Woz. First off, thank you for responding my questions, I do appreciate it. Having said that, it just seems like your reaction to Bernie is very visceral and not necessarily based on facts or reasoning. For example:

1) You say the belief that he can get enough votes in the electoral college is a problem, but to me I don't thik of it as a problem. On the contrary, given the right running-mate, I'm pretty sure that yes, Bernie could pick up enough of those votes. I'm pretty certain he had a much better chance of taking the swing states than Hillary did. Since neither of us really has evidence to support our belief, than shouldn't we at least respect that the other person's position may have truth to it? We don't know it for a fact, it's just debate at this point.

2) I don't think Bernie comes across as crazy old man. I think he comes off as an intelligent and kind passionate speaker who listens to people and adresses their concerns in a direct and thoughtful manner. Seems pretty presidential to me, especially after having lived through W and Trump.

3) I don't see it as him hijacking the democratic party. They willingly accepted his candidacy and determined that he had gone through all the correct procedures. If you really have an issue with this then your issue is with the democratic party's rules for determining who can and can't be a candidate. We're all adults here. We must assume that they thought about it, thought about arguments like yours and yet still determined that he was a viable candidate. If you respect the democratic party so much, why can't you respect that? Aren't you in a sense saying that you know better than the actual democratic party members how the party should be run? Isn't that what you're accusing Bernie of?

It seems like Bernie provokes a visceral gut reaction in some people and that's ok, but you must see how it blinds your reasoning. Just look at Mannfred's post:

"How is it Bernie's fault that his idiot supporters voted for Jill Stein & Gary Johnson?"

Really? So Bernie's supporters are idiots? Not one intelligent person among them? And you're confident they ALL voted for Stein and Johnson? Most Bernie-supporters that I now voted for Hillary, we must be talking to different groups of people. And if the voters didn't buy Hillary's rap, than that's the voters' fault? How is it not her fault?

Some people believe it’s now or never on the “progressive stuff”

I’m in the camp of fuck the dumbshit and get out and vote for the non 3rd party candidate in the general, no matter who the fuck the candidate is.

THEN, push the candidate to work for ALL people.

I thought it was pretty clearly written.  The sentence structure has the same meaning as "idiots who previously supported Bernie but who ended up voting for Stein or Johnson".

The obvious implication is that, by failing to vote for Clinton, they helped elect Trump, and thus I think they are idiots, given that they supported Bernie's policies.

I will reiterate my earlier point:

The issue now is the current election and winning the swing states of Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan.....and maybe toss in Wisconsin. The rest will vote the same they did in 2016. This discussion boils down to whether you think Sanders can win those states and I say no way in hell.

I don't think Warren can win their either. I think progressive policies are popular in the coastal and liberal states. I support them. Do I think that the platform is a winner? Absolutely not, and I am more interested in stopping the degradation of you system of checks and balances, having competent people staffing government agencies and the wholesale monetization of our government than I am in rolling out Medicare for all in 2020 which won't happen due to the composition of the Senate. So I see all of this "now ir never" shit as suicidal. The country will get there in time, but now now. Sorry.

In the end, it's vote for anone but Trump and DO NOT vote third party.

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1156404333472354304

......Apologies for all the typos in my last post.....

ok, a question for all the "adults".

who should get the nomination?

who is the "moderate" that will appease the people in the middle?

let us know.

Biden/Harris was my pick but I don't think old Joe can keep it together. If he can, I think that's a winner. Sadly, I otherwise don't think we have a winner in the stable - but there is still time.

old joe sounds way worse than bernie.

guy had his chance. he's been fucking up this country for a long time.

i get that he is the "safe" corporate dnc pick.

i'll hold my nose and vote for whatever candidate emerges.

ca has moved up our primaries, we'll see what happens.

I'm voting for Yang in the primary. C.R.E.A.M.

Joe sounds addled, Bernie sounds like a crazy old man. Neither is good for prime time. I’ll probably vote for Warren or Harris in the CA primary. 

My preference is making Donald a one-term President.   

These swing states appear to strongly prefer Biden, so picking someone else seems risky.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/michigan/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/wisconsin/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/ohio/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/pennsylvania/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/florida/

Yup

Imagine what you guys could do if you moved to those states. 

I keep trying to talk you into moving to TX and help flip it blue, slacker.

Warm weather, lots of pools, cheap (well, compared to the Bay Area) housing, and you can be part of a blue wave.

so people are so fucked up in those states that they would rather elect a racist, criminal con man rather than make sure everyone has basic level of health care.

Homeowners can move to Texas. They can do whatever they want. 

I can't leave California because there are too many jobs here. 

Millions of homeowners that will always need my help. 

>>>>  so people are so fucked up in those states that they would rather elect a racist, criminal con man

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/31/opinion/trump-2020-midwest.html

The Democrats’ ability to wrest back Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa faces a steep hurdle. The population of the Rust Belt is aging at a much faster pace than the rest of the country.

Exit polls show that people over the age of 50 put Donald Trump in the White House, and the Midwest has them in droves.

In five states — Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Minnesota and Wisconsin — the number of 18-to-35-year-olds, the most liberal age group, grew by 56,448 between 2016 and 2018, according to Mark Muro, a senior fellow at Brookings.

That growth pales in comparison with the rising number of people 65 and older, a core of Republican support, which grew by 685,005 — an advantage of better than 12 old people for each young person.

...

Polls consistently show that older voters are more Republican than younger voters: In 2017, for example, Pew found that 18-to-35-year-olds skewed Democratic 54 percent to 39 percent; voters over 70 were 48 percent Republican and 41 percent Democratic.

The aging of the Rust Belt population is a major factor in a closely related trend, the declining share of self-identified liberals in the region.

Pew Research reports that from 2010 to 2017, the percentage of people who say they are liberals in the Midwest — defined broadly as Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North and South Dakota, Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas — dropped from 23 to 19 percent, while the percentage describing themselves as conservative fell by a statistically insignificant 1 percent, from 38 to 37 percent. Moderates grew from 33 to 37 percent.

The aging of the Midwest population, in combination with the ideological shift to the right documented by Pew, is more than daunting to Democrats. In other circumstances — that is, without Trump as the top of the Republican ticket — these trends would be better described as debilitating to Democrats.

But Trump is at the top of the ticket, so Democrats are eager to fight in the region.

...

In 2020, Trump is likely to find his strongest levels of support in the same downwardly mobile white, disproportionately rural sections of the country that backed him decisively in 2016.

A different Economic Innovation Group report on the 207 counties nationwide that voted twice for Barack Obama and then for Trump — “The Flipped Counties of 2016 Still Lagging Behind” — found that not only did most of these counties suffer “a severe downturn during the Great Recession” but that they “experienced a sluggish recovery afterwards.”

These flipped counties (which are not congressional districts), the report continued, “represent a distinct cohort of places that have generally been bypassed by the upsides of recent economic change.”

Since Trump’s election, the counties that went from supporting Obama to supporting Trump have continued to fall well behind the rest of the nation on measures of the rate of growth of employment, new businesses and population.

A chart prepared with data from the Economic Innovation Group shows not only how the flipped counties have continued to fall behind, but also how prosperity has become increasingly associated with voting for Democrats.

(lots more, very long piece)

Yang

 Ylang  Ylang

"People" in the audience who interrupt particular candidates.

What's up with that?

Tulsi just ended Harris chances

Kamala is a joke probably still win SC & CA

Yang wins so far on brains and having a sense of the big picture.

^ I got 100 free Yang for Us '20 stickers in the mail yesterday ^___^

^ I got 100 free Yang for Us '20 stickers in the mail yesterday ^___^

An artists rendition of the proceedings 

I wonder what that artist thinks about Yang.

Tulsi is kinda hot.

biden prevents the young people who actually want to move society forward from showing up to vote. 

very risky. 

bernie gets all the young people, independents, and eventually all the morons i mean moderates who are “anybody but trump”, especially once he picks warren for vp. 

I love yang, and Williamson cracks me up.

that said, the beat Donald ticket, in my moderate moronic opinion, is....

Biden/ Warren.

Biden believes being brown in this country makes you a suspected criminal for being here.

But if you bought a PhD...

^^^lol warren won’t work w/ biden, no way. 

nor would he pick her. 

Bennet seems way stoned.

I’m trying to go to Joe30330 but can’t get there can anyone lead the way?!!!?!!?!

Warren is my first choice.  Joe is a fossil, but until those old fucks in the midwest change their minds, I’m with the old fucks in the swing states.

weirdness dream ticket:

Warren/Buttegeig

with Yang as SecTreas, Harris as AG, Booker as Sec State, and Bernie as Sec HHS.

^right on. 

just gotta say, woz you’re weak minded man. 

all you do is regurgitate anti bernie main stream media taking points from 2016. lol wtf? can you think for yourself? 

doubling down on the mistakes from 2016 is insane. you sure you want trump to

lose? 

^^^Tulsi is kinda hot.

Some people say she’s a 10 ,,, I think she’s a 2020 

Maybe a Tulsi and Kamala “ticket” if you know what I mean sigmund! I’d vote for that! Oh yeah. Chicks

I wish they'd talk more about undocumented immigrants

https://www.wearelatinlive.com/article/4487/heres-a-twist-91-of-american...

<< According to a study by the National Institute of Geography and Statistics, around 739,168 thousand American citizens lived in Mexico in 2015 and, according to the National Institute of Immigration, of those only 65,302 were legal residents.

That means that 91.2 percent of estadounidenses living in Mexico in 2015 were there “illegally”.

And that number has risen. More recent statistics from the State Department report that almost a million Americans are currently residing in Mexico and, of those, 934,698 are there illegally. That's an almost 40% increase in just two years.

While Trump’s administration constantly tweets about "illegals," they've conveniently failed to mention the reverse statistics.

The horde of "terrorists" and "criminal aliens" that Trump tweets about, murdering, stealing American jobs, and raping white women, are actually just regular, hard-working people trying to live their lives.

Of the roughly 11,328 people Trump has deported back to Mexico only 723 were deported on serious criminal charges.>>

>>>>The horde of "terrorists" and "criminal aliens" that Trump tweets about, murdering, stealing American jobs, and raping white women, are actually just regular, hard-working people trying to live their lives.

wait, what’s all this???

There's something not right about Tulsi Gabbard. Can't put my finger on it but it's dark.

Her love affair with Syria's dictator is bazaar. 

     Kamala Harris is done, she's a terrible person, her presidential aspirations are over...having said that I'm sure Trump would love her to be the nominee.  I think Hillary did democrat women a real disservice by somehow encouraging a false pathway towards the nomination as a contest of who can be the nastiest human being, you can see the women erroneously believing it's a viable pathway towards being the nominee and it absolutely is not...Tulsi gets it.  

     Tulsi Gabbard rips Kamala Harris' record on criminal prosecutions

     https://youtu.be/Y4fjA0K2EeE

Yang 

     https://youtu.be/VpRvHfrTVlk

Andrew would implement the Freedom Dividend, a universal basic income of $1,000/month, $12,000 a year, for every American adult over the age of 18. This is independent of one’s work status or any other factor. This would enable all Americans to pay their bills, educate themselves, start businesses, be more creative, stay healthy, relocate for work, spend time with their children, take care of loved ones, and have a real stake in the future.

     If I could click my heels and everyone would receive free money I would, but I think that throws certain laws of economics out the window...it sounds great, but to think it wouldn't fundamentally change the viability of the republic is unrealistic.

 

 Bryen on Thursday, August 1, 2019 – 01:42 am

Russia

Try and explain how it fails. 

     
     https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsi_Gabbard

     Knotesau, your point?  I was just trying to illustrate that I pioneered the large print technique a few weeks ago.

     Namaste 

     Anyways, back to the subject...I am a political junkie more than you are, for what it's worth I can tell you "cutting to the chase" that there is not one democrat that will come within a hundred electoral college votes of Donald Trump.  To think otherwise is to either be brainwashed by the Jake Tapper/Rachael Maddow machinery or completely void of situational awareness.  That will undoubtedly only register with very few of you.  The next 15 months will possibly/quite probably be the most amusing spectacle of political absurdity anyone has ever witnessed in our 243 years.

Can't sensible people have a normal discussion without a lunatic right wing fringe conspiracy theorist who posts youtube videos no one watches ruining it?

Seth Rich died for your sins, Bryen.  Haha you fucknut. 

     The YouTube video was Tulsi mopping the floor with Kamala...try to keep up.

    * there was another video link of Jerry playing Russian Lullaby 

     ...and Jeff, you're a prime example of why this election goes the way it will

     The elephant in the room is that it's over before it began more so in 2020 than in any election since '84, everyone knows it but no one dare speak it...what a joke of a roster, Joe Biden?  That's absolutely insane...literally insane to think he beats Donald Trump.  Is that the suggestion...that he would beat Trump?  Can you imagine the debates?  Maybe some of you are new to politics, let me be the first to tell you it's over, there's not one viable candidate in the democrat lineup, to think for a moment anything different is to live in a parallel universe.

     Goodnight & good luck!

    "Try and explain how it fails."

     It is interesting, I'll give you that [no pun intended]...psychologically it's of course intriguing, which is what I think he's banking on.  I just think it fundamentally "interrupts" the wheels of economics.  In a perfect world I do get it...as far as there being a certain mathematical algorithm at which point it makes sense, and maybe it should be explored, but to deny that it would have negative ramifications is unrealistic, and again, I would love to give everyone cash every day, and maybe aspects of the theory might work, but the predictable negative dynamic would be to surgically remove economic motivation to produce goods & services.

OK, Bry - what will you do for us if you are wrong re. Rump winning?

     I'll buy everyone a pint at Martin Mack's

when are Comey, Brennan, and Obama getting arrested?

Dunno - think the stakes should be a lil higher.

New 2020 head-to-heads in national Quinnipiac poll just out:

Biden 53%, Trump 40%
Sanders 51%, Trump 42%
Harris 49%, Trump 41%
Warren 49%, Trump 42%
Buttigieg 47%, Trump 42%
Booker 47%, Trump 42%

    ^ that poll is laughable      

Well, to me, it's laughable because it's too early for polls to mean anything, but I suspect that, to you, it's laughable because you know so much more than the pollsters and the respondents.

how anybody watching these sad debates can still vote for biden is incredible. he’s a bumbling fool.

guy did worse than debate 1. $1000 deductible? 8.5% tax of your income? hilarious. 

once he’s on stage w/ everybody, meaning bernie and warren, the final knockout punch will be thrown — biden doesn’t stand a chance. 

I will never get how many Dems will argue for moderate policies and candidates. We have extreme right wing Republican leadership because they've never capitulated on their ideology since Reagan. Americans want a President that will shoot for the moon and stars. Fight corruption.

Healthcare is a right! Sanders/Warren!

Then Warren in 4. That should be their deal.

I will never get how many Dems will argue for moderate policies and candidates. We have extreme right wing Republican leadership because they've never capitulated on their ideology since Reagan. Americans want a President that will shoot for the moon and stars. Fight corruption.<<<<

Corruption is clearly the root of the issue, but why couldn't the same thing happen (as has happened with the GOP) on the left in terms of extremism?

What's the point of calling shots, this cue ain't straight in line.

Amending the Constitution so as it is less likely to be "gamed" (by those who are corrupt or have placed special interests ahead of the greater good) would be a start.

No one will remember any of this when they start voting in Iowa on February 3rd. Biden is still the guy to beat. 

Corruption is clearly the root of the issue, but why couldn't the same thing happen (as has happened with the GOP) on the left in terms of extremism?

Of course it could. The point is that the left has to be uncompromising on it's core values. The challenge for the Dems is the party has been corrupted by Corporations and their $$ since WJC in '92.  The GOP has been that way for far longer. IMO if the Corporate Moderates win out in the primaries again, the party is headed for irreconcilable divorce, regardless of the results of the election. The Liberal Elite and Progressive working class voters see eye to eye on very little these days.

Biden has no chance. He's just a terrible National Candidate with too much baggage. 

>He's just a terrible National Candidate with too much baggage. <

that's what i've been saying and all the "grown ups" want to yell at me.

Andrew Yang had announced he had reached his fourth 2 percent poll earlier this week, but the DNC revoked his qualification for having two national NBC polls (NBC/Wall Street Journal and NBC/SurveyMonkey). Yang is still expected to pick up his fourth poll in the next few weeks and secure a spot in the September debate.

This board is full of 50 year old college freshman.  

Sorry folks - this is not the election to run on progressive values and policy ideas, which I mostly share. This is the election to Dump Trump. That being the case, we need to settle on the candidate that can win in the Rust Belt. It's not gonna be the guy or gal that's the farthest left. 

>>>>>The point is that the left has to be uncompromising on it's core values

Yeah, if they want to lose again.

"Sorry folks - this is not the election to run on progressive values and policy ideas, which I mostly share. This is the election to Dump Trump. That being the case, we need to settle on the candidate that can win in the Rust Belt. It's not gonna be the guy or gal that's the farthest left."

IMO, that's the exact attitude that put Trump in power. Dems are all wishy washy, always willing to give in to the repubs and start the negotiations from a position that favors the repubs. Maybe if they had a spine and stood for something they might actually motivate some voters into voting.

Same this election. Wishy-washy neolib BS is just going to give the election to Trump, again.

that's what i have been saying javs.

dems don't need to worry about repubs when they are their own worst enemies.

>>>This board is full of 50 year old college freshman.  

so fucking true, best line on here

javs and turtle get it. surf n co will hopefully catch on, or hand the election to trump again. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/02/us/politics/2020-democrat...

bernie’s gonna get republicans in the midwest to vote progressive. 

crazy. 

> bernie’s gonna get republicans in the midwest to vote progressive. <

Put the crack pipe down son.

organizer in chief, mother fucker! 

"Moderates" are sad little sycophantic​ creatures.

""Moderates" are sad little sycophantic​ creatures."

I kind of feel like they're just other human beings with a different point of view whose life experience has led them to different conclusions than me. I even feel like I can talk about them without insulting them. But hey, to each his own.

Turtle, Pyramid, it's how it is right? I mean, negotiation (like it or not) begins from extremes in order to hopefully find something in the middle. When I go buy some pretty lamps in Brick Lane in London from the Turkish immigrant I can see that he has them at 80 pounds each, an outrageous amount that nobody in their right mind should pay. So after the niceties and chit-chat, my first offer to him is going to be to low-ball the shit out of him, tell him I want a lamp for 15 pounds and to throw in an extra lamp shade. With this strategy, we eventually arrive at me buying a lamp with two extra lamp shades thrown in for a total of 40 pounds. Good deal. Had I started the negotiation at the price I wanted (30 to 45 pounds), his final offer to me would have been somewhere in the 60 pound range - no extra lamp shade. 

Is this really that hard to get? The Republicans get it. They start negotiations at the most outrageous far-fetched bullshit they can think of and then the Dems piss their pants not knowing what to do. Then, by kowtowing to the "centrist" ideal, the final price ends up being all the way on the Repubs side of the negotiating table. 

Do the Dems REALLY not know this? No, the old-school Dems know this just fine. They play the game this way deliberately because it feeds the loop of corporate financing that pays for their fancy lifestyles and power trips. The progressives aren't really saying anything all that radical. Maternity leave? Ooooooohhhhh. Quality free education? OH MY GOD! Allow women to make choices over their own bodies? How dare you? I mean really, all these things are standard practices in most half-way developed countries around the world. If the Dems actually had the balls to cast off their corporate overlords and start the negotiations from a more radical point of view, they might actually be able to move the needle somewhere closer to the center. Because right now, it's ALLLLLL the fucking way to the right. Craziness. Rant over.

The folks who elected Trump aren't going to vote for a true progressive. You need those votes to elect a Dem.

 not his diehard, can do no wrong, racist base, like thom and bryen, no.

rather true republicans, independents, and conservatives in the midwest who feel played and forgotten about and bernie is the only one even trying to resonate w/ them. 

doubling down on the same mistakes from 2016 guarantees trump 2020. what’s wrong w/ you people? playing it safe is voting bernie, mass appeal — risky is biden/harris/mayor/etc., they don’t represent our interests, never have and never will. we all know this, right? bought n sold, just like HRC. they are hated establishment dems that won’t get any of the 2016 trump votes — HRC 2.0 — they absolutely hate those people, and w/ good reason. 

you're organizer in chief is running the finest campaign in modern history — you know HRC is watching in amazement lol. 

The people in the swing states that voted for Trump over Clinton are not going to vote for someone to the left of Clinton. They're not going to vote for a Socialist. They're not going to vote for a person of color. They're not going to vote for a gay person. They may not even vote for a woman.

SCOTUS gets lifetime appointments.

^you've swallowed all the establishment talking points.

donations pouring in from the midwest — he has the support of the entire country. click the link. 

corporate dems don’t beat trump, we saw that in 2016. 

but let’s try again. hahaha

>> I kind of feel like they're just other human beings with a different point of view whose life experience has led them to different conclusions than me.

While I appreciate (and always appreciate) your nuanced perspective, Javs, ‘moderate’ has simply come to mean code for a corporatist who has never had any regard for progressive change, and adopts the cloak of progressivism for acceptance from the wider liberal camp. It’s Biden, it’s Harris, and it’s actually quite a few voters. ‘I’m a progressive, I just don’t believe my progressive values are relevant to this election; we need to rally behind the corporatists. Our future depends on it. Think of the children,’ LOL WHAT?

Fuck corporatism.

>>>>They're not going to vote for a person of color. They're not going to vote for a gay person. They may not even vote for a woman.

You aren't going to vote for them. But you have an excuse ready. 

> I just don’t believe my progressive values are relevant to this election; we need to rally behind the corporatists. Our future depends on it.<

I agree, Ateix. 

>>SCOTUS gets lifetime appointments<<

A second term for Trump means 15-20 years with a 6-3/ 7-2 conservative majority on the supreme court. 

>>Think of the children<<

I'll vote for whoever looks like they have the best chance to beat Trump in the primary when it comes around. Right now leaning Warren.

I'll vote for whoever is nominated to oppose Trump in the general.

What a failed political system we have, when people are willing to discard their principles because they feel like they have no choice but to choose the lesser of two evils.

I'd rather not participate in such a system.

Javs and Pyramid get it.

https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/kamala-harris-san-francisco-catholic...

who supports kamala again? lol. 

I want to elect a pres that will undo everything possible that chump has done. And in the first month.   Biden, Harris and the other"moderates"(they are really to the right) will not. They will spout excuses but they will mostly continue the corporate bullshit that we are eating right now. The progs  will fix what they can and immediately.   So, the choice is clear to me.   Fuck biden. He is and always has been a piece of shit. And I will vote for him against chump, but I would be holding my nose. We need to go way to the left, and that is the way I will vote in the primaries.

You wil re-elect Trump.

^no. 

people like you doubling down on the mistakes made in 2016 will re-elect trump. 

they’re counting on you. how’s that feel? 

>>>>>You wil re-elect Trump.

But the population won't grow and he'll deport or incarcerate the "illegals".

"‘moderate’ has simply come to mean code for a corporatist who has never had any regard for progressive change, and adopts the cloak of progressivism for acceptance from the wider liberal camp"

I agree with you completely, Ateix, I just don't think it's necessary to insult anyone.

<< I just don't think it's necessary to insult anyone. >>

Sometimes a good insult is not only entertaining, its downright necessary. 

We all would like to see a far left nirvana, but not going 'way left', is the smart play for the dems.  The Cortez hubbub should have shown you that. 

In the northeast people like Joe. He's likeable.  Whoever takes the primaries gets my 110 % against stump.

Would live to see a serious challenger on the pub side primaries just to fuck with lord farquad's ego

https://youtu.be/2O-iLk1G_ng

great interview. 

our next president. BERNIE.