BHAZ

Film at Eleven

Don’t you touch that dial

The statue pulling down thing is fucked up as hell. 

Protest yes, anarchy no.

The statue pulling down thing is fucked up as hell.

why? if we have statues up idolizing murderers, traitors or racists, why not pull them down? if the government wont act let the people act 

^ So if I find your Lawn Gnome distasteful,  it's fine with you if I smash it, and set your property ablaze ?

The same people that spoke up against the Taliban destroying ancient Statues are saying "Oh yeah tear down Jefferson or Grant because that is soooo Grooovvy ".

Yet many Cities and Towns have Grant and Jefferson Street.  The Money even has their faces on the Magical Green Paper.

any husky statues nearby?

If a statue is on private property (lawn gnome or otherwise), then it's not something that the general public would have a say in. However, statues in public spaces are subject to public approval and acceptance, and if locals want a statue gone, I think they have the right to get it gone. Tearing it down? That's questionable, but it's no less destructive than the "patriots" and "founders" were in the early stages of expressing their desire for freedom from Britain.

Something to consider: isn't having statues of people like Jefferson Davis and Ulysses Grant in America kind of like British people erecting statues of George Washington and Patrick Henry? The difference, of course, is that those two actually fought on the victorious side in their rebellion and quest for independence, unlike anyone who fought for the Confederacy, whose cause was far less righteous and, arguably, far more treasonous.

And the Confederacy lost...everyone who fought for the Confederacy fought a losing battle to oppose the United States of America, secede from that nation and shed blood in an effort to maintain the institution of slavery. 

Seems like just the sorts of statues that should come down, and pulling them down is nothing more (legally) than vandalism (I think). All the hand-wringing over the tearing down of statues of losing, treasonous men who fought to own other men seems odd to me.

>Seems like just the sorts of statues that should come down, and pulling them down is nothing more (legally) than vandalism (I think). All the hand-wringing over the tearing down of statues of losing, treasonous men who fought to own other men seems odd to me<<

It seems to bother racists 

You don't mean to include Grant in your example there, do you, Chance?

Perhaps you were thinking Lee since Grant fought for the Union Army, of course.

Who's been to Stone Mountain, Georgia?

Yikes.

Stone Mountain/Georgia

Chris Chandler 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YoulPkEppbA

The point of history is to study and learn from events.  When history gets whitewashed, people forget the events that shaped progressive thought.  This is why historic ephemera, such as statues, should not be destroyed, but presented in the proper context so that succeeding generations can study them, and the subtext to progressive thought isn't lost.  
 

It's important that people understand that a massive war was fought on American soil to end slavery.  Battlefields are and will continue to be sacred ground.  The defeated army and it's leaders are part of that story.  The whole story can't be told without them.  They don't deserve to be placed in a context where they and the cause they fought for are revered, but they shouldn't be erased.

Just because someone lost their fight doesn't always mean their cause was lost either.  Nat Turner's Slave Rebellion failed.  He was captured and hanged.  However, Slavery was eventually abolished, and statues of Turner are prominently displayed in public places today.

What we're seeing today is a re-evaluation of what monuments are worthy of public praise.  This is all well and good.  The vandalism and destruction of those not deemed worthy is short-sighted, though, and needs to be stopped.  It's mob mentality, and is a detriment to progress.  It builds more division rather than reconsideration and understanding.

do they have nazi statues in germany?

Tearing statues down is history too.

Erwin Rommel has a memorial stone in Heidenheim.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/was...

Removing them is history, Bss, destroying them is losing the ability to learn from them, and it destroys art, which is a form of censorship.

Do you think we should demolish The Great Pyramids in Egypt, or the Aztec and Mayan temples that were built by slave labor?

The memorial to Rommel in Heidenheim was removed in 2013, although a memorial to him in Blaustein at the site of his suicide still remains:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/e...

I don’t know, Dave. I’m not an Egyptian or a Mexican. That’s not a question for me to answer.

Statues aren’t history. They are physical representations of history. Taking them down doesn’t erase history, it erases the glorification and normalization (I think this is really the goal with statues) of said history.

No, I don’t think wrapping the issue of statue removals in layers of bureaucracy, years of debate, financial back and forths, scientifically worded ballot measures, and exploratory commissions would be effective. Do you? This generation of Americans isn’t asking for permission, they are asking for support. And I support them. 

Does a statue being or not being in your local park really change your life any? 

How much time do you think most of these “history buffs” have spent at the library lately? Their choice history is likely well preserved in most of them.

PS the purpose of art is to invoke emotion, reaction, or response. That is precisely what’s happening.

Who said anything about leaving them prominently displayed?  They are being removed quickly.  South Carolina just removed the John C. Calhoun statue today.  New Orleans' removal of it's Confederate statues last year was a tipping point, a sign that these symbols are no longer meant to be celebrated.  
 

Mob justice is never good.  It's what gave us lynchings.  More currently, it contributed to the death of 19 year old Horace Anderson, a black man who had just graduated from high school the day before and was shot at the edge of the CHOP zone in Seattle's Capitol Hill.  The crowd that gathered prevented EMTs from getting to him and he was dead by the time that the activists got him to the hospital.  That's a stain on this movement that is signaling the end of CHOP and has stifled the momentum and distracted the progressive agenda of the movement.

people are wondering why they are removing junipero serra statues here...

Equating destruction of property with violence against people by trying to draw a straight line between the two is flawed logic.

Agreed, removal and destruction are different. The efficiency of each method are also light years apart.

Also agreed some are being removed quickly, under threat of physical destruction. Seems like a pretty functional lever if you ask me.

Have you ever learned anything from a statue? I don’t think I have. Open question. Anybody?

Ken, the virtuous Nazi tale spun around Rommel, like The Lost Cause of the Contederacy, is just another myth.  As one of Nazi Germany's top military commanders, he would definitely have been aware of The Final Solution, not to mention the Einsarzgruppe SS Death Squads that were assigned to follow his Afrika Corps through Palestine it his forces hadn't been defeated at El Alamein.  Sure he was at least aware of the plot to assasinate Hitler, but his complicity was derived from his tactical sense, that the war was lost, Hitler was a madman, and that he was going to destroy Germany and it's people by dragging the war out.  As a leader of the Nazi war machine, he is every bit as culpable as Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were to the Confederacy.

The Statue Of Liberty taught me that the ideal of the U.S. is to be a home for those fighting oppression.

Equating destruction of property with violence against people by trying to draw a straight line between the two is flawed logic.

<<<<<<<
 

Good luck explaining that to Horace Anderson's family.

You want me to tell them that violence against people is different than destruction of property?

uh, okay. Maybe if you view people as property.......

I would hope they are already aware of that fact.

No, I want you to explain to them why people purporting to be looking out for the common good prevented their son from receiving prompt urgent care.

>>The Statue Of Liberty taught me that the ideal of the U.S. is to be a home for those fighting oppression.<<

weird. My parents taught me that.

And please stop using Horace Anderson as your strawman. The conversation is about statues.

Nice deflection.  The discussion of statue removal involves mob mentality.  Guess Horace's life doesn't matter to you.

I grew up outside of NYC from 9 months to 8 years old.  My parents took me to many historical and cultural sites and taught me their significance.  They continued this wherever we moved or traveled to.  It is a large part of my interest and appreciation of history and culture.

The strawman is the deflection here. Horace Anderson’s murder really has nothing to do with statue removal, destruction, or relocation. 

I am perceptive enough to understand that destroying inanimate objects is not the same as killing people. You seem to find difficulty acknowledging this fact. I don’t know if you are conflating these constructs intentionally, or.....

I also know better than to argue over the definition, intent, history, and all that other shit about what “mob mentality” does and doesn’t do, or what it is and isn’t. It’s a lot like arguing over “the boogeyman”.

That josephine Bonaparte has been headless for near thirty years kind of illustrates my point. Apparently, new red paint is applied regularly. See? Headless slaver. Thirty years. That’s the new history now.

I have learned from statues, as they spark an interest to find out why that mofo that I never heard of got bronzed and a park named after him. Yes, there's considerable history I like to learn, American or otherwise. The World Wars continue to amaze me, but The Civil? We are one whacked-out species, that's a lock.

We got a statue in grants pass of a caveman with a club. He is seventeen feet tall. It was actually built by the caveman club (go figure). As far as I know no protesters have attempted to destroy it yet. 

Which I do personally appreciate.

Because in my opinion we really owe a lot to Neanderthals.

<Because in my opinion we really owe a lot to Neanderthals<

Yeah, but what have they done for us lately?

Bss, you have the biggest caveman-with-a-club statue. I always know I've arrived in Southern Oregon when I see that statue.

Yes it’s quite a sight. I suppose in some ways its a good reminder of what we once were.

I’m all for busting up Mount Rushmore or Stone Mountain. Just don’t mess with the caveman!

https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/23/kevin-mccarthy-rioters-who-topple-sta...

1. Strikes a stale but sympathetic posture regarding death of black man and stuff about law and order as opening to get your attention

2. immediately does the equating violence against people/property interchangeably thing

3. Goes a little berserk about mob mentality

5. Okay, a lot berserk

6. Closes by basically declaring war on any people who break things

7. Never once even mentions police brutality (the kind he forgot to mention that disproportionately targeted and actually killed George Floyd), systemic or institutional racism (the kind that enshrines slave owners and religious missionaries with statues in parks), or any single acknowledgement of what the protests that are happening right now all over this country are actually about.

8. Kevin McCarthy is the Republican representative for California’s 23rd congressional district and the current House Minority Leader.

I feel like I’m living in some kind of parallel universe here. Can’t make this stuff up.

be great to see mount rushmore destroyed. 

people who have an issue w/ tearing down statues of american racists, can fuck right on off. 

I'm with heater on this one. Not sure why there even needs to be an argument? Tear them all down and more and error on the side that most of the random statues you see, are just worthless white guys who had money.  Tear them down and put Chuck D and Spike Lee instead.

There should be a museum about the American Civil War. It really is that important. It's a huge historical event in the nation's history, one that should never be forgotten, that is possibly the most defining moment for the nation in its history, and one that deserves to be explored from all historical vantage points. A museum would be in charge of curating statues and historical artifacts, taking care of them, storing them, using them for educational research, etc. They could round up as many of the Confederate and Yankee statues as are needed, and use them to teach about this. Shit, put the museum on the Washington Mall and make it free.

I frequently stop and learn from statues. Both for their artistic value and for their historical significance. A tourist in Santiago would find their experience enriched (I think) by realizing that the statue just behind the presidential palace is of Salvador Allende, the democratically elected socialist who got bombed to shit while in that building. If you didn't know who it was, you might just think it was some ugly Elvis Costello looking dude. Plus, I like when sculpture and statues meet, the more artistic representations of people or peoples.

Teddy Roosevelt just got removed from the Met in New York. The Met, right? His Grandson was all for it, said the statue didn't represent his grandfather's values, what with the weird Indian and Afro-American porter/servants at either side of him. They took it down nicely though, no tearing. Which is good. I can't imagine telling thousands of irate Iraqis not to tear down the statue of Saddam after he was toppled. I can imagine the voice in the crowd: "Stop guys, it has historical value!" Or when they tore down the statue of Lenin after Leningrad became St. Petersburg once more...

It's a shame that shit needs to get tore down for people to open up their eyes. But sadly, peaceful means rarely bear fruit in this type of situation...

^ That's a helluva post, Jav. Exactly what I meant.

You maniacs! You tore it down! God, damn you! Damn you all to hell!!!

You maniacs! You tore it down! God, damn you! Damn you all to hell!!!

The national civil war museum is actually in Harrisburg, PA. I’ve never been there, but yeah. Quite an important event. 

>>Perhaps you were thinking Lee since Grant fought for the Union Army, of course.

Yes, quite right. Inexplicably, I've always gotten those two mixed up in my mind. But, that's another interesting point...Lee's statue, if I'm not mistaken, portrayed him riding gallantly into battle, astride a great steed, gazing at the struggle bravely and ready to meet it. Ready to bravely fight for a treasonous army bent on two things: destroying the United States of America and preserving the right to own slaves.

I'm not for that. That's not the kind of history that needs to be glorified...statues do not teach, they commemorate and, implicitly I think, glorify. Now, a statue of a somewhat chastened and presumably more enlightened Lee kneeling to take communion with a black man in Richmond? That might be something worth teaching AND glorifying...but not the General roaring into what would ultimately (and thankfully) be a losing battle.

Great post up there, Javs.

Don Trump Jr suggested that a statue of his father should replace any statue that is toppled. 

I think there is a chance for a compromise and I don't believe the protesters would object...

Depending on the type of statue, they perform different functions.  It's an artistic medium, like a song, a poem, a short story, or a painting, and can be used in different ways.  Statues of historical figures commemorate, but statues of mythical figures are more allegorical.  I would be interested to hear Alan's input here, as he is an accomplished sculptor.

Virgil Caine is the name
And I served on the Danville train
'Til Stoneman's cavalry came
And tore up the tracks again
In the winter of '65, we were hungry, just barely alive
By May the tenth, Richmond had fell
It's a time I remember, oh so well

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, la, la, la, na, na
La la, na, na, la, la, la, la, la"

Back with my wife in Tennessee
When one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see
There goes the Robert E. Lee"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood
And I don't care if the money's no good
You take what you need and you leave the rest
But they should never have taken the very best

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singing
They went, "Na, la, la, la, na, na
La la, na, na, la, la, la, la, la"

Like my father before me
I will work the land
And like my brother above me
Who took a rebel stand
He was just eighteen, proud and brave
But a Yankee laid him in his grave
I swear by the mud below my feet
You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singing
They went, "Na, la, la, la, na, na
La la, na, na, la, la, la, la, la"

The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, la, la, la, na, na
La la, na, na, la, la, la, la, la"

“The left-wing mob is trying to demolish our heritage so they can replace it with a new, oppressive regime that they alone control," Trump said in Phoenix on Tuesday. "They're tearing down statues, desecrating monuments and purging dissenters. It's not the behavior of a peaceful political movement, it's the behavior of totalitarians and tyrants and people that don't love our country -- they don't love our country."

^ Raw meat for the jackals

I can't believe how far this has gone already. Took a while but I finally saw some Native Americans involved in statue removal, but not of Columbus, it was Teddy Roosevelt.  If any yahoos try fucking with the monuments on battlefield sites like Shiloh, Antietam or Gettysburg, there will be big fucking trouble. 

Praying with Robert E. Lee
https://www.historynet.com/praying-with-robert-e-lee.htm

>>You mean something like this, but make one of the kids black?

Or a depiction of the event in Richmond in which it actually happened, which I think represents something much more worthy of a statue than anything he did in service to the Confederacy. 

His service to the Confederacy just makes him--like all who served the Confederacy--treasonous to the United States of America. I know most of them saw it as a righteous cause, but they were wrong, and a statue of them gallantly riding into battle doesn't do much to communicate that fact.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32870657/remove-statue-science

On the evening of July 9, 1776, after news reached New York of the approval by the Second Continental Congress of the Declaration of Independence, a mob toppled the statue of the British king George III in an act of “symbolic regicide.” According to legend, the pieces of the statue were then sent to Connecticut, where they were melted down and made into 40,000 bullets for the Continental Army.