Which is a "worse" reason to go to Civil War: support of slavery or belief in Big Lie?

For starters, it needs to be said that civil war is an oxymoron.

That said, when looked at as threats to our system of democracy, I'd say that support of slavery or belief in the Big Lie are about equal.

Once they secede, they won't be Americans any more. Ironic. TX, LA, MI, FL good riddance. Idaho can be their "Hawaii". 

Exactly what is "the big lie" these daze? It used to be cocaine.

The Big Lie is that Trump won the 2020 election.

Thanks, Mike. Wouldn't that be a small minority of mouth-breather's?

Last time I checked, Earl, it was about 35-40% of the country.

FOM, slavery was kind of the big lie of it's time. There's biblical precedent for slavery, the southern states wouldn't survive without slavery, black people are savages and white people are enlightened, therefore, white people are God's chosen people. And then there's the racial element to our BIg Lie. Taking all of that into account, I'd still say they're about equal.

Imagine if you will the absolute blood bath that we would have seen at the Capitol on Jan 6 against rioters had they been black. Most of these WHITE assholes that were there attempting to stop a fair and clear election victor process appear to to be getting off fairly lightly with time served or home arrest.

FOM, I think that many people who get the wool pulled over their eyes often want to be misled. They don't like the way things are going, and eat it up when someone tells them something that they are already primed to hear.

At the heart of our current troubles, I see a lack of critical thinking, and some of that is the willful ignorance kind.

Hmmmm one based on racism, the other ignorance. Both are related, both shameful. Pretty much a toss up.

>   perpetuating the circuit of the echo chamber ... Fox immediately comes to mind, but there are many other pot stirrers acting with intention as well

Sure, but what's the point in parsing out degrees of evil? The pot stirrer is perhaps more evil than those who eat up what's in the pot, but in the end, they're still both evil.

This conversation is reminding me of a story about Benjamin Franklin leaving the Constitutional Convention in 1787, and being asked what kind of government had been created. His answer was "A Republic, if you can keep it."

It seems like a lot of people don't want to keep it anymore.

Have you guys seen the size of Joe Rogan's nipples? Insanely small. I mean like aberrantly tiny.

>>Imagine if you will the absolute blood bath that we would have seen at the Capitol on Jan 6 against rioters had they been black. Most of these WHITE assholes that were there attempting to stop a fair and clear election victor process appear to to be getting off fairly lightly with time served or home arrest.<<

In my opinion a huge reason you didn't see many/any black people in the Jan 6th crowd is because (politically) they don't really have a dog in the fight.

Watch real close and you will begin to understand this riot really represents the struggle over maintenance of white power dominance of our political sphere.

This ultra right wing performative display (I'm hesitant to use the word insurrection) illustrates the physical example of obvious systemic racism within systems of power in America, in action.

So, for me, like; maybe one notch below actual slavery?

I agree. It has been ridiculous watching some of these losers cry about not being able to hold onto their guns at home while awaiting trial or whatever and the long delay to jail a now-former cop from VA whom refused to give them up. 

The forces of evil have been dumbing down our educational system and our kids for decades.

Looks like it's finally paying off.

> this riot represents the struggle over maintenance of white power dominance of our political sphere

No doubt, Bss, and more specifically, the erosion of white dominance, which is in its death throes, and its adherents are making it clear they're not going down without a fight.

right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isCh4kCeNYU

I agree with you, Surdead, but that is oddly the same position that 'the right' takes in their attack on public education system and their absolute obsession with CRT or its lack thereof. Most hot-button issues seem to land that way but get fought on other marginal BS.

Those who oppose critical race theory are doomed, if you believe that "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Honestly I'm getting tired of instiutional racism (CRT) being referred to as a 'theory'.

It's dismissive and disingenuous, and tacitly, provides space for and lends credibility to opposing 'theories' (there aren't any).

Even the whitest, most privileged, authoritative, right wing constitutional scholars can understand this.

...or, certainly at least three fifths of it.

Bss, I haven't heard of anyone conflating institutional racism and critical race theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if some folks do. The first is a thing, and the second is a way of looking at the thing.

As for theories, in the Humanities there are no laws (like Science's Law of Gravity, or my personal favorite, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which is where entropy is established as a thing), there are only theories. It's all discourse, maaan. Just talk and ideas that can't be empirically proven or disproven.

> ...or, certainly at least three fifths of it.

I'm smiling at that for all the wrong reasons, and wondering where all the other two-fifths went to.

yes, I agree. I'm just saying to oppose CRT is equally to deny institutional racism and white privilege all in one shot

like denying gravity

or water being wet

or the sky being blue

yeah doomed

But isn't it really only a theory when its being taught in a sterile educational setting? In my opinion it moves beyond that into something more visible and concrete (actual institutional racism in action) when it happens in 3D, and when it exits the classroom and becomes a topic that enters the national dialogue.

> or the sky being blue

Can we at least agree that the sun's not yellow, it's chicken?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjB9ESps4GA

Did slavery really ever end (ask a migrant farm worker)

the premise of this thread sounds pretty absurd.

comparing generations of abject human slavery with victims counted in the millions to a bad orange man and a pillow salesman making shit up about an election thats been over and done with for 6 months, with no chance of being reversed?

are you guys fucking serious?

Nailed it daylight.  

Sorry for sounding like such a dumb-ass earlier in the thread, 'cuz current events-hasn't been-me much lately, but I was sorta' under the impression all the right-wing wacko shit had been quelled for the most part. Even some of the major  jailbirds are admitting they were wrong now. 

Are you telling me the Repub's cant come up with a decent person to beat the scandal-ridden fucking con man in a primary? 

Earl, it seems they're all willing to be assholes for the cause.

...and GOP candidates are trying to get trumph-endorsed and/or get him to loosen his warchest of money that has been raised on their campaigns. They don't want to piss off him and/or his fervent supporters/voters. Ya know, for the cause/movement and all.

Is this thread still going? I thought daylight shut it down.

/r/esist

No doubt that there will be some violence from disgruntled supporters of the former president (just yesterday, Proud Boys came to town and started shit), but agree with Daylight on this.  Simply no comparison between a shifty snakeoil salesman spreading lies that have been thouroughly refuted (even by the guy's former attorneys who initally peddled the hoax) and the institution of chattel slavery.   

I am more concerned about talk of a "Convention of States" under Article V of the Constitution:

https://conventionofstates.com/

Article V has only been invoked once before -  to repeal prohibition.   But thankfully, America's love of drinking beer and liquor is stronger than a desire by some to knock over the game table and start over. I also doubt they could get 3/4 of the states to go along.  

Do you not understand it's a hypothetical question, or are you suggesting that further violence by Trump supporters - after launching an assault upon our nation's Capitol and Democracy - is simply an outlandish proposition?

no, im suggesting that any amount of violence we could reasonably expect from trumpers would not be as bad as slavery, and that any attempts at stealing the election or insurrection were doomed to fail from the start - did a bunch of those folks on jan 6 want to overturn the election? sure. was there a chance in hell of them suceeding? no way. 

But more to your point:  it's possible you're still not addressing the question as a hypothetical that results in a full-blown civil war.   This was not detailed in the OP so perhaps it's my fault for not explaining further, but let's assume there's a conflict that lasts a few years and results in the deaths of 3 million Americans somehow.

the thread title was asking which reason was worse, so presumably we are not factoring in the effects of the civil war itself, and are only considering which initial reason would have been better or worse. 

How can we ever be certain about what is a reasonable amount of violence to expect from Trump supporters? 

just based on what seems physically possible for them to do. slavery destroyed the lives of millions of people over generations. they could do another 9/11, still not as bad as slavery. 

One idea that may help with the question at hand is the fact that slavery has been dealt with and the Big Lie is still very much clear and present danger.  

The info coming out of the DOJ is making it clear that DT and his allies in the Congress were absolutely attempting a coup.

So very far from over.

I think the left, as a whole, is not "radical". Trying to uphold laws that protect all peoples rights and being labeled as radical for that has infuriated the right's attempt to uphold white privildge and instutional racism. Being whiny and uneducated causes those afflicted to find some importance and meaning, and there is a ready made group (cult) willing to accept and happily groom and grow that ignorance. An angry mob fighting a percieved threat only gets angrier when the threat doesn't really exist, then finds others to blame their anger on. 

It ain't over 'til several Hummers full of Proud Boys get Bonnie & Clyded

We fucked our immoral asses 400+ years ago

And we're no better now

Because we refused to learn from it

We're still a colony. Same language and flag colors. Everyone has missed the point.  
 

"I'm Uncle Sam, that's who I am; Been hidin' out in a rock and roll band.
Shake the hand that shook the hand of P.T. Barnum and Charlie Chan.
Shine your shoes, light your fuse. Can you use them ol' U.S. Blues?
I'll drink your health, share your wealth, run your life, steal your wife.
Wave that flag, wave it wide and high."

sorry the 'massas are makin' too much bit coin to have all the workers kill each other.

Capitalism needs more people spending, not fewer.