Israel v. Palestine

Forums:

They are back at it again.  Same old, same old but the videos circulating on Twitter are crazy.   Lots of people out in the streets in both Israel and Gaza filming rockets coming down around them.  Hope they are able to come to a ceasefire soon.

Israel has depose their crackpot leader the guy is a cancer

too much hate

Bibi has to go. All of this recent shit is caused by Israel kicking people out of their homes in East Jerusalem. The Palestinians rightly protest. The Orthodox Jewish nutbags respond. The police fire rubber bullets in the mosque, during Ramadan. Smart move, assholes. Gaza is a powderkeg, and they've now lobbed over 500 rockets. Israel responds with air strikes.

Bibi couldn't build his coalition government. He needs to be ousted.

Bibi needs a war and some Israeli bloodshed to maintain power. Fear gets him the coalition he needs, an autrocrat's playbook 

 

I thought Jared and Pompeo fixed it all.

This must be Biden's fault.

I tried to bring them peace. It didn't work so I left.

Interestingly, a couple of months ago, for the first time in history, Palestinian MKs (Members of Knesset) backed Israeli politicians who were opposing the right wing parties. It may not seem like much, but it's a huge step. When the liberal parties get power, there will be at least some sort of "something" with the Palestinians, which can hopefully be a stepping stone to peace.

The never fuckin ending story - chapter 1,, God said to Abraham, ' kill me a son '

Homeowning is war.

It's a war that draft dodgers like you will never fight.

California is holy enough for me. 

Having opinions is anti Semitic 

You seem to be the expert and have nothing to learn. Tell us more.

Nancy loves China.

racket loves noise

 

is noise

West Bank settlement named for Trump.  You really don't need to know any more. 

Also, the US evangelicals believe, in addition to the End Times/ Rapture horseshit, that all Jews will convert to Xtianity as the Big Day approaches.

Kinda like that Inquisition thing.

In case anyone is interested in plain information from someone who lives in Israel, my cousin near the town of Gedera (about 20 minutes east of Ashdod by car) has been providing me with what he knows along with a report from a brother, who lives in Tel Aviv.
My cousin estimates there have been over 800 rockets coming from Gaza since Monday. While none have yet reached his part of town, the residents still have to abide by alerts and evac to bomb shelters from time to time. He says right now, “it’s like the movie, ‘Groundhog Day’. The alarm goes off and we start all over again. We just don’t know when it will end.”
Apparently, Hamas or other militants in Gaza fire off as many rockets as they can, with no apparent specific target. They either cannot direct their rocket fire accurately or do not care where the rockets land. Israeli defense systems can knock out some before they land, but some get through. Rockets that get through land mostly near Gaza border towns as far north as Ashdod. Some have reached other parts of Israel as far north as Tel Aviv, east towards Jerusalem and south east to Be’er Sheva. Since the rocket fire appears to be indiscriminate, damage can be inflicted on Israeli or Palestinian properties or people.
While I have not communicated directly with my cousin in Tel Aviv yet, his brother says he told him the same alert conditions also exist in that city. In nearby Lod (Ben Gurion airport), the rioting is also apparently indiscriminate, with rioters bombing an Israeli/Israeli-Arab mixed school and the killing of an elderly Israeli-Arab citizen from a rock throwing incident, among other destruction, primarily in the Ramat Eshkol area of the city. Lod is currently under night time curfew.
As for Jerusalem and other parts of Israel, my cousin only has info from local news reports and has yet to relay to me any first-hand info from his friends or in-laws.
I can post more info as I get it here. But it’s just going to be my cousins reports as they are relayed to me. I’m not interested in engaging in conflict about the conflict.
I just hope my family and everyone else can stay safe. The only observation I’m willing to make is I guess a global pandemic is not enough to keep the world from tearing itself apart these days.

Here is a short video of Israeli rockets intercepting rockets from Hamas. 
https://youtu.be/7DvgAvhFS24

Israel vs Palestine>>>>
 

They will be talking bout this for the next hundred years so conversation on this topic at this point is probably closer to irrelevant than we realize

I appreciate the detail, Mylar, and hope your cousin's family can stay safe. What a way to live.

Al Jazeera now reporting Israeli tank and artillery fire into Gaza from the north and east, and Infantry division also currently being staged. 

 

fyi a division is roughly 20k 

generally includes all necessary equipment to support and sustain a ground war.

 

bad

 

 

Bibi's official line is now, "We are going to neutralize the terrorist threat, once and for all."

Hamas' official line is now, "Bring it, bitches, we can do this forever."

Maybe we can get Bibi, Likud, the far right Israelis, Hamas and Islamist JIhad in a building for peace talks, and then bomb that building to smithereens. It would go very far to solving the problem.


US blocks urgent UN meeting - China

The US has reportedly blocked a request for an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council on Friday to discuss the crisis.

A spokesman for the delegation for China, which currently presides over the council, said the US would not agree to hold a further video conference on the flare-up of violence. 

Reuters reports that the US cited diplomatic efforts as the reason for its objection but left the door open for a possible meeting on Tuesday.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-57099013

I like that solution, BK - just put Jared and Donnie  in there too, it's only fitting. Then they can all be awarded Nobel peace prizes, posthumously 

BK FOR THE WIN

And credit to Nancy for an assist

One of the worlds most formidable armies, able to destroy entire continents, vs poor people without a country...   

Trevor Noah had some wise words the other day...   (worth the 8 minutes IMHO)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeZ4yXyzUG0

 

My lovely mother got strip searched by Israeli soldiers 40 years ago for trying to smuggle video tapes of the Palestinian intifada movement out of the country.  

My brother in law was a Presbyterian minister (with a Phd) working with the peace effort in Lebanon when the bombs from Israel got dropped back in 82 or so.  Beriut was a coastal paradise back then, similar to it's European counterparts, then was bombed into 3rd world status.  My bro in law told stories of counting heads, as there were no bodies left after the drones had destroyed the air raid shelters.  One night, a story of an angel appeared,  a very old lady, had the same look, appeared in several air raid shelters simultaneously, and said "go to the beach", which everyone did...  next thing there are a thousand + people walking onto beach, as those very shelters got decimated...   they all said it was a miracle!   Meanwhile, the Israelis made contact with a wealthy community (blanking name), and warmed them to evacuate before it got destroyed (mostly biz owners / bankers / Drs, etc).  But as the evacuation was in full force, 2 Israeli aircraft blew up 2 bridges stranding several miles of cars / trucks, which they strafed with gunfire, killing everyone.

Those realities experience first hand by a family member never made it to the western press...   makes me wonder else we miss?

Personally, I usually root for the underdog, nationalism doesn't interest me much, as we're a tribal people full of assholes, just look at the blogosphere, LOL

>>>One of the worlds most formidable armies, able to destroy entire continents, vs poor people without a country... <<<
 

It's ethnic cleansing. Settler colonialism. 

 Bss, you're a bright guy. Can you please not do the blood libel thing?

Israel may be a big, bad meanie, but ethnic cleansing? At the time of the formation of Israel there were under 200,000 Palestinians. There are now over 7 million. That's not genocide or ethnic cleansing.

Maybe you're calling forced relocation "ethnic cleansing." It isn't. It's sucky and bullshit, but nothing like Rwanda, Yugoslavia, or the dozens of other places that real ethnic cleansing took place. Again, use of that term, in this case, is just  blood libel.

Guess it comes down to how you define "ethnic cleansing."    If it means forcing people of a certain ethnicity out of a geographic area to make room for another group of people, then the expansion of settlements into Palestinian territory could be called that.  But yeah, if Israel's goal was to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the planet, they could have easily done that by now.   Its also true that the IDF has the luxury of conducting military operations with pinpoint precision to minimize civilian casualties and it could be much worse for the Palestinians in Gaza than it already is. That being said, its still one of the most densely populated places on the planet and as careful as the IDF might be in its operations, its certain that a lot more civilians will die before this is all over.

At least Raytheon will be making a fortune with all the Iron Dome missiles that Israel will need to order to replace its supply.   The night skies over Israel look like a CGI Star Wars space battle.   

Not sure how number of Palestinians really matters, Palestine isn't Israel's "tenant", and no law allows for Israel to just "evict" Palestinians. This what Israel has been up to for the last 70 years. An eviction (forced relocation) implies Israel acts with some type of authority here. Israel has none.

that's not "sucky bullshit", it's displacement and dispossession of indigenous people via colonial violence (big bad meanie). Israel is targeting civilians here.

blood libel is your word. (And that's not what blood libel is,) so If you don't like it, pick another one.
 

Perhaps apartheid. 

I don't do the "both sides" thing. I'm pretty solid with my support of the Palestinians in this.

It isn't ethnic cleansing, and your use of that term is blood libel.

Stick with the other descriptors that fit: colonialism, Apartheid, etc.

Blood libel is ritual murder Brian.

Artillery fire and air to surface missiles aren't instruments of ritual murder.

Nobody is collecting up Palestinian blood.

It's ethnic cleansing. It's also apartheid and colonial violence. And probably war crimes, at least.

 

 

but I digress. If all we're in disagreement here is the definition of a descriptor, I can live with that.

Blood libel is lies about murder. In the classic sense it was ritualistic, to collect the blood of Muslim or Christian babies to put in matzo. 

Let's agree to disagree, hope this ends quickly, and shit starts to change over there.

lol no way Tex.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/glossary-terms/blood-libel
 

of course we should hope this ends quickly, with no further escalation of war by Israel.

but I'm not "agreeing to disagree" with what blood libel is.

or more importantly, isn't.

 

 

 

 

Well that hope didn't last long.

778CE93C-02CD-43DE-9D95-359E509B498A.jpeg

I'd be happy to explain exactly what I mean, but it probably isn't worth the typing. Either you get it or you don't.

Like you said, I'm a bright guy. Try me.

because at this point I feel like you're just scrambling for a reason to be offended.

I'm not offended. It is what it is. At least you're willing to maybe learn.

There have been many ethnic cleansing in history: 100 million Native Americans, Bosnia, the Armenians, the Jews and Romani, the Uigurs, Myanmar, the list goes on. It's pretty clear what ethnic cleansing is. What's happening to Palestinians is all sorts of fucked up, but it isn't ethnic cleansing.

When it comes to Israel, some people throw around ethnic cleansing and genocide very cavalierly. It's just a modern extension of blood libel. It's an absurd claim to start with.

There's plenty to more than criticize. It makes the argument stronger when sticks to what's real.

I mean, I actually study this stuff. (And as an aside, I have also trained with Israeli soldiers. Not an enemy I would want to face.) And it's really a horrid thing to have to break down into nuts and bolts, but words really do matter. What ethnic cleansing is, is actually something that isn't completely agreed upon (in academia, or among governments, etc).

The United Nations says of ethnic cleansing; “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” And that's basically my understanding/belief as well. 

So then, ethnic cleansing can take on a whole host of forms; of which genocide is certainly the most extreme method. But genocide isn't a "requirement" for ethnic cleansing to be taking place. Take your example here in the U.S. :

U.S. relocation of natives (reservations) - ethnic cleansing

U.S. Abolishment of Hawaiian language and written text (around 1893, I think. No violence involved) - ethnic cleansing

U.S. forcing native children to white residential schools - ethnic cleansing...

U.S. Massacre of Buffalo population (forced starvation) - genocide

U.S. Forced sterilization of native women - you tell me

 

So really these things happen along a spectrum, from completely nonviolent, all the way to death camps and a whole lot in the middle.

Disposessing ethnic minorities from their homes without reason of law or treaty, by the use of coercion (fake court orders), violence (raiding mosques during Ramadan like wtf?, land invasions, that sort of thing,) is ethnic cleansing. As you point out, the Palestinian population has grown significantly. I would say they're doing their best to ensure their collective ethnic survival versus a nuclear power. And while the population has grown, the Palestinian footprint has consistently been shrunken. And so in the case of Israel /Palestine, calling it not a genocide is really a strawman. Of course it's not a genocide. It's death by a thousand cuts instead.

 

so no, calling this this ethnic cleansing is not only accurate, it is also not blood libel, which I linked to the ADL definition of, and is clear. That link also includes modern context. Blood libel is anti Semitic trope type supremacist hate thought that Jews are blood drinkers and shit. And yes, I agree lots of people do conflate genocide and ethnic cleansing in a very casual, conversational manner. I'm not one of them. Respect.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue. Thanks.

As you said, the definition is hazy. As there are millions of Palestinians living in Israel proper, and they have the right to their religion, language, homes, schooling and even citizenship, I don't see a policy of ethnic cleansing. The forced removal in East Jerusalem (and West Bank) is criminal and fucked up, but not ethnic cleansing, at least not to me. Gaza is a shitshow of massive proportions. Both Israel and Hamas take blame for that.

Packing US arms, the smart money's on Israel. 

You'd think having been enslaved for generations and going thru the holocaust, the heebs would be somewhat sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, and possibly just allow them places to live and work. 

WTF is wrong with these people ?

The oppressed become the oppressors.

 

It happens.

Was listening to Howard Stern years ago when he was on regular FM radio and he seemed to have the answer. He said " Jews like a nice seaside area with lots of sand - in 47 they should have given em the Baja Peninsula " 

Mexico would be building walls.

As expected, BK getting slapped around all over this thread. Doesn't matter if it's not ethnic cleansing "to you". It is by definition and the definition isn't hazey. 

From Bss's post: What ethnic cleansing is, is actually something that isn't completely agreed upon (in academia, or among governments, etc).

Timpy, run along.

Can we all agree that anything 'granted' from the bible should have never been any concern at all?   We still base real world reactions against made up bullshit. 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with the bible. Israel is one of over 100 countries formed by colonial powers, over a 50 year period. Many of those nations have had huge problems with old tribal conflicts and religion. Israel is one of many, no different.

Can we get past Israel's right to exist? Like it or not, it's a country and it isn't going away.

Yeah but you don't get to play both sides to the middle like that Bk. First you declared it's clear what ethnic cleansing is. Then you say that the definition is hazy (it isn't *hazy*, it's just not concise) but "you just don't see it".

 

okay.

 

How many Palestinians are violently being "relocated" by the Israelis?
 
How many Jews are being violently relocated by the Israelis?

 

The answer to that question precisely *why* this is ethnic cleansing.

Not playing both sides. I'm acknowledging that I learned something, and that my definition isn't the only one.

Okay, then let's take into account that 300,000 Jews moved to Israel after they were ethnically cleansed from the newly formed Arab countries. France, Canada, Australia, the UK and USA only took in 300k. Where were they to go?

My point is that there's a big old cycle. Jews were kicked out of Europe and Arab countries. They uprooted Palestinians. All of that is history. How do we now solve the problem and create peace and a hope for freedom and prosperity for all?

>>>>>How do we now solve the problem and create peace and a hope for freedom and prosperity for all?

First, Israel needs to just fucking stop pushing settlements into Palestinian territories and start treating them with a little more respect.   Next, there needs to be a true two-state solution combined with a vigorous land for peace exchange.   Realistically, the largest and oldest settlements should be included in the redrawn borders of Israel, but the newer settlements need to be removed.   In exchange, Israel needs to give Palestine some quality land elsewhere.   And Jordan should kick in some land too.   They have shat upon the Palestinians as bad, if not worse, than the Israelis have.   Don't see why Egypt couldn't give up some land near Gaza too to help round out the deal.

As for the Palestinians, they need to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.  You can debate the wisdom of historic Zionism all day, but the fact is Israel is here and its not going away.   The Palestinians also need to do a better job in reigning in and disarming the militants.   Regardless of the righteousness of their cause, shooting rockets at cities in Israel is just plain stupid and self-destructive.   In the second Intifada, the Palestinian militants would often strap bombs to themselves and go blow up buses.  Shooting rockets is like strapping bombs to your kids.  Nobody expects Israel to just say "thank you sir, can I have another" (nor should they) and because no matter how careful the IDF is in trying to avoid civilian casualties, everyone knows kids and other innocents are going to get killed in the crossfire and what little infrastructure they have is going to be turned to rubble.   

At minimum go back to the land boundaries established by the 1946 mandate. Or something to that extent. No it wouldn't solve everything completely. I acknowledge this still basically defers to colonialism as the default here.

I don't expect Hamas to back down. The Palestinians live there, and have almost no military capabilities (comparatively). They have nowhere to run to, other than into a smaller iteration of their own current footprint. You either expect them to say "ok, we'll just move (again)", or you expect them to fight back (sometimes preemptively, yes, sometimes self-destructively). Calling this "both sides" is like suspending the kid with glasses for fighting back when he got picked on at the playground.

 

>>>>>The Palestinians also need to do a better job in reigning in and disarming the militants.

 

Is that as easy to do over there as it was here?

Common sense post there, Ken.

Great post, Ken. I agree with everything you said.

One of the problems in the West Bank is the lines created in the truce after the 1967 war (I think). Israel was attacked and won, and as happens in all ceasefires temporary lines were set. Typically, those lines would change in the formal peace treaty. As none of the Arab states recognized Israel, they wouldn't make a treaty. Jordan pulled out and Israel moved in. Settlements became cities. Israel kept allowing new settlements and growth.. We can debate why it happened or the "right and wrong," but that doesn't mater. What's left is the results, which are Apartheid, colonialism and continued land grabs.How the hell do you have a "2 state solution" when one of the states is a damn jigsaw puzzle, with roads going through that you don't control?

"The Messiah will come only when he is no longer necessary, he will come only one day after his arrival, he will not come on the last day, but on the last day of all."

- Franz Kafka 

Cousin near Gedera reports "... seems a bit quieter today so far, I hope it holds up. But, I have a feeling we (Israeli military) are in 'let's teach them a lesson mode' and that can take time."
In the midst of all that is happening my cousin and his wife became grandparents for the first time yesterday. Maybe this new addition to our family will know peace in his time. It would be even nicer to see that in the time I have remaining. Fortunately, none of my younger cousins are currently active in the military there and, for now, are only dodging rockets, bombings and riots.

I remember Delia going off years ago on whoever posted the map Noodler posted up there, saying it was antisemitic and "debunked" She was livid. She also didn't like the standard perception of god in the Old Testament as vengeful but benevolent in the New.

God in the Old T ,, he's a bachelor,, and he's angry

Anybody see the movie Hail Caesar ??  F'n hilarious, you will love it, guaranteed. 

“Help me understand the math: How many Palestinians have to die for their lives to matter?” Tlaib asked while wearing a traditional Palestinian “keffiyeh” scarf around her neck. “Life under apartheid strips Palestinians of human dignity.”

 

Israel is just as bad as the hamas. They killed 100 civilians including children just today. What's the difference? They are both wrong but one side is backed by the devil which is us and the other side is about to get completely annihilated with no one backing them.

bk apologizing for ethnic cleansing now. this is expected from such a guy. 

also, bk, you were made to look like the fool you are in this thread. 

^lowest of the lows. 

pure trash. 

What does Biden want to do?

He should cut military aid until  the dictator/Trump clown  clone is out of office

Every Despot needs an enemy

"Now understand; that anybody who says 'extremist left', they are trying to create an equivocation with the extreme right".

"Because there is no such thing as the extreme left, it is a fiction".

Who are you quoting, and in what context?

Okay, got it. Great link, Slack. I agree with him whole-heartedly.

The extreme right in Israel says that they don't have any responsibility for and to the Palestinians. They are pieces of shit.

I'm not welll-informed on the finer details of Israel/Palestine politics so please someone explain to me why the only self-proclaimed Zionists I'm seeing on twitter are all trumpers? Don't trumpers hate Jews or was that whole SC tiki torcher thing a one off?

The hardcore evangelical Christians believe that Jesus' return and the rapture will come only when the Jews control Israel. For them, Zionism isn't an end, it's a means to an end. Over 70% of US donations to Israel, from private citizens, is from the Evangelicals.

Please keep in mind that, at this point, believing that Israel has the right to exist doesn't have to equate to Zionism. It's one of 180+ countries, many formed exactly the same way (by colonial powers). It has the same right to exist as any other country.

 

 

Jews most certainly have a right to exist.

But Israel doesn't have a "right" to jack shit.

They have what they are able to enforce militarily, under the guise of Judaism. 

And the US loves selling Israel trillions of dollars in military stuff, because it's our right. And that's most of the reason why the right wing and blue maga love Israel so much.

right?

 

All Palestinians are Hamas? 

BK I wasn't talking about evangelical Christians, I understand they think the apocalypse will work out great for them if they support Israel. I'm seeing Jewish people who are self proclaimed Zionists supporting trump on twitter. Specifically on this woman's threads https://twitter.com/i/status/1395451485790642181

ps I don't think simply being Jewish=Zionist at all, but I I suppose one has to be Jewish to be a Zionist or am I wrong about that, are evangelicals considered Zionists in Israel? I'm not really sure I get what Zionists are about if they support trump in the US. It seems pretty weird for them to support an anti semite icon. Are Zionists the Israeli equivalent to trumpers? 

Lord only knows why Jared Kushner and other right wing Jews support Trump and Bibi. Fear and hate are powerful motives. perhaps, as is greed.

All the  Israelis I know are anti Bibi and  Anti Trump. Not sure if liberal Israelis  consider themselves Zionists, certainly they support the State of Israel, their home country.  

Indeed, the MAGA cult  is overwhelmingly anti-Semitic, but they give  a pass to right wing Jews. 
 

Why are there right wing extremist Jews that embrace fascism and hate? Probably the same reason there are evangelical 'Christians' who embrace fascism and hate. They Corrupt religious teachings to fit their agenda, and they both hate Muslims even more than each other. 

Its not just the fascism and hate it's that the fascism and hate is directed at Jewish people and Zionists are still on board with it. I'd imagine evangelicals wouldn't support the hate if it was directed at their own but then again they all believe in a magical sky daddy so who knows. Thanks for explaining it all. 

 

I don't know any Jewish people who identify as Zionists. I just see a lot of people who DO identify as Zionists saying awful shit on social media.

It's complicated, this opinion piece can help to dechiper the politics at play.

Anti-Zionists aren't Anti-Israel, IMO - they just want more liberal policies and aren't as concerned about Jews being the majority of Israeli citizens, again much like liberals in the US who embrace multiculturalism and immigrants versus the MAGA racists who are fearful about losing a white majority here. 

http://www.ijan.org/new-opinions/zionist-embrace-trump-bannon-no-surprise/

I'd have to imagine that, like anything pertaining to the human condition, fear is a big motivator for the hate.

"If we make all these Palestinians full citizens, they become a majority. They'll then persecute us and/or kick us out, just like every other Arab country did. Then what? Where will we go?"

They are legitimate fears, but instead of seeking 21st century solutions they revert to hatred that perpetuates the cycle.

>>But Israel doesn't have a "right" to jack shit.
Assuming "jack shit" means "anything", if this particular country does not have a right to anything, then shouldn't it follow that no country has a right to anything?
"Imagine there's no countries" would be an ideal if all humans on the planet would or could agree. I would also add "no religion, too", but that might be considered racist now.

I hear you, Mylar. Israel, and all countries, have a responsibility to treat indigenous people and minorities  with dignity and respect; certainly with a corrupt and racist leader like Bibi I can understand some vitriol and bias toward the Country, however much of the rhetoric does  seem disproportionate and frequently anti-Semitic. 

My hope is that once Bibi is removed from power that Israel can move forward with more progressive policies and radical changes to the treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories- ultimately a 2 state solution or just Israeli citizenship for those living in the country. That's all easier says than done.

 

>>... Israeli citizenship for those living in the country
If you mean non-Jews, they already do.
My friend, Ednon, whose Jordanian family was forced to live in the West Bank camps, pre-'67, were re-labled "Palestinian" by Jordan. They also lost all their property in Jordan when that happened.
Ednon was born in one of the camps. When the West Bank was liberated (his word, not mine) in '67, the family moved to Nazereth and became Israeli citizens. He considers himself Israeli and not affiliated with either Jordan or the Palestinian people. I do not know if any Arab country that allows Jews to be citizens, but most of them kicked their Jews out either before 1948 or after Israel was declared a sovereign nation by the U.N.

Also, not a fan of Bibi. If my young Israeli cousins had their way, Israel would move away from a lot of current policies, including orthodox Jewish influences.

>>most of them kicked their Jews out either before 1948 or after Israel was declared a sovereign nation by the U.N.

About 800,000 in total were kicked out of Arab nations.

I'm not a Zionist, but I'm pretty sensitive to the historical plight of worldwide Jewry. In 1947-48 there were well over 1 million Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab nations. That was the culmination of a 2,000 year history of forced removals, mass killings, ghettoizations, pogroms, etc. People finally could say, "we finally have a place where we can have self-determination, a place where all those who are kicked out and fearing for their life can go." If it's a "Jewish  Homeland," it's the one place where they can feel safe.

It was a solution to a millennia old problem. It also created problems of its own.

>If you mean non-Jews, they already do

 

I was referring to those people living in the occupied territories 

^^
If a solution occurs that produces a country of Palestine, I'd be curious to see how many would prefer being a citizen of that country or another.
As far as I know, anyone can become a citizen of Israel provided they adhere to their citizenship process. I know Israeli citizenship has been offered in the past to Golan and West Bank residents, as was offered to and accepted by Ednon's family.

Yeah, the current situation is untenable- so let's hope the folks living in the occupied territories can agree to something that improves their lives, be it their own State, citizenship in Israel or Tribal sovereignty

243 dead in Gaza. 12 dead in Israel.  
Gaza lies in ruins.  

Not really a fair fight.

Is there ever such thing as a 'fair fight' during  a war? 
 

Hamas launched more rockets than Israel, and sure if Hamas had the same capability that  Israel does  to defend against  (most) incoming rockets that might make it 'more' fair' - but not really. 
 

if Bibi is finally ousted, there will be a greater chance for a diplomatic resolution, and at least Biden has shown a willingness and ability to work with those  in the region and supports  a coalition to advance  a lasting peace agreement. 
 


Call me a dreamer..

 

How many people is Hamas?

Who do you think knows that answer here, Slacker?

Why don't you try Google? 

 

You are the one painting broad strokes. 

What do you like to paint, Slacker? 
 

 

 

 

'A WHOLE GENERATION OF JAFFANS CAN’T CONTINUE TO LIVE THERE'

As tensions boil, Jaffa’s Arab Israelis say gentrification is pushing them out

Historic mixed city has seen vast changes as it turns into a bastion for the ultra-wealthy; some residents accuse the government of trying to get rid of them to make way for Jews

By ILAN BEN ZION 

28 April 2021, 1:14 pm 1

 

AP — A turreted former Catholic girl’s school in Jaffa is being transformed into an exclusive Soho House club. Around the corner, a historic former convent is now a five-star hotel. Across the street, the glittering towers of the Andromeda Hill luxury residences overlook the Mediterranean.

 

But farther down Yefet Street, working-class Arabs of Jaffa’s Ajami neighborhood face a starkly different reality. With housing prices out of reach, discontent over the city’s rapid transformation into a bastion for Israel’s ultra-wealthy is reaching a boiling point. The crisis has taken on nationalistic overtones, with some Arab residents accusing the government of trying to push them out to make way for Jews.

“Ninety percent of people here barely make a living, from hand to mouth, they don’t have enough to eat,” said Jaffa resident Ibrahim Tartir. “For a young man looking to get married, it’s 5,000, 6,000 shekels ($1,800) for rent, not including water and electricity and the rest. How much does he earn? 6,000 a month. How can he live?”

 

Jaffa, the historic port at the core of the greater Tel Aviv metropolis, is home to around 20,000 Arab residents, remnants of the Palestinian population that lived there before Israel’s establishment in 1948. The district has undergone extensive gentrification in recent decades with government encouragement.

That trend has accelerated in the past several years as real estate prices have skyrocketed amid surging demand. As wealthy Israelis and foreigners move from other areas of Tel Aviv into Jaffa, its mostly working-class Arab residents have been pushed out. This has added ethnic tensions to an economic phenomenon familiar in other cities around the world.

 

“We’re reaching a point where Arab people can’t buy houses unless they are very rich,” said Youssef Masharawi, a Jaffa native and professor of physical therapy at Tel Aviv University. He said young Arabs in Jaffa have nowhere to go, unable to afford to start families in their hometown and facing discrimination in nearby Israeli cities with overwhelmingly Jewish populations.