There have certainly been Covid deaths that have not been reported. On the other hand, there are deaths that have been listed as being "caused" by Covid when the person simply had the virus and died of other causes. They probably cancel each other out.
>>>>>how do you separate the virus from dying from a stroke secondary to (caused by) the virus? Very tricky business.
It is tricky. In your example, I would say that it would be caused by Covid because the stroke was caused by the virus. I am not an epidemiologist or medical examiner, but personally, I think a "but for" causation test makes the most sense. In other words, if the person would have otherwise survived but for having Covid, then it would chalked up to the Covid. On the other hand, if the person would have otherwise died regardless of whether they had the Covid or not, then it would not be counted as such.
<<On the other hand, if the person would have otherwise died regardless of whether they had the Covid or not, then it would not be counted as such.>>
But they are counted, regardless if death is causative or correlative to covid-19. So, yeah, this is medical fraud, plain and simple.
Furthermore, the testing for covid-19 is very inaccurate, which would make the official death numbers even more suspect and erroneous.
Canadian author and long-time independent researcher, David Crowe, has written a new paper, “Antibody Testing for COVID-19.” (May 13, 2020). Some excerpts:
“The only jurisdiction with a formal structure for approval of antibody tests is the United States but, until very recently, it was a complete joke, as the test manufacturers did not need to provide validation data. Now it is only a partial joke, as validation data must be provided, but the FDA can only do a paper analysis. Imagine if auto-manufacturers had to build cars to certain EPA (US Environmental Protection Agency) fuel efficiency standards, but rather than sending a car to the EPA for testing, they could do the testing at their facilities, and just send the results in afterwards…”
“Antibody tests are often subject to cross-reactions with other conditions. This could be because the [other irrelevant] medical condition produces similar antibodies, or because something related to that [other] condition reacts with other test components. The choice of [cross-reacting] conditions to check for is completely under the control of the manufacturer and even when no cross reactions were found for a condition, the number of samples tested was so small that the possibility of a fairly high rate of false positive cross reactions still exists.”
“Positive antibody tests have only been found in a minority of people in the general population even where the virus is believed to have been circulating for months. These fractions are generally taken as truth, but one would expect a highly infectious virus to have spread much more widely…The one experiment that could show whether antibody tests are actually meaningful would be a time series of a large number of people who are currently negative on all tests. This experiment would be time consuming, inefficient (as many people would never become positive on any tests), intrusive (frequent nasal swabs and blood tests) and obviously very expensive. Those are practical considerations, but in the absence of such an experiment we are almost totally in the dark about COVID-19 antibody testing. Given the billions being spent on COVID and the trillions being lost by the economy, it surely is not impossible to do some worthwhile science.
"They" "know" how many deaths would have been expected over any time period. Subtract that number from the actual number of deaths, and voila - you have a pretty good estimate of the Covfefe-19 toll.
>>>>>Subtract that number from the actual number of deaths, and voila - you have a pretty good estimate of the Covfefe-19 toll.
I have read that is what some epidemiologists intend to do. Apparently, they have used that same methodologies in calculating heat wave deaths. The issue I see with that approach, however, is that the number would also include deaths related to the lock down measures, such as those caused by increased suicides, domestic violence, and substance abuse, as well as deaths from delayed treatment of other conditions in people who were too scared of the Covid to go to the hospital.
Tangent thanks Nancy for making me aware of the free Covid testing
I really feel we are flying in the dark and making decisions with no data so I wanted to add one statistic by getting tested and yes I was negative ). And also tested negative(
I was confused when the location came up as Santa Clara when I searched for San Jose
But I was so stoked because I visited the ghost of Jimi Hendrix It was a Santa Clara County Fairgrounds Where I had seen him many moons ago And it basically was a seminal moment in my life
what do you mean by "move it along nothing to see here"? we've known this for months - mortality from covid is high when you have existing health issues or risk factors, and it extremely low in younger and/or healthy people...nobody is trying to cover that up, its openly admitted and discussed by almost all medical experts on many platforms, including cnn
How does one establish COV19 as being a "direct cause of death"?
IOW, from a systemic perspective, can most pathologies resulting from infection ever be considered a singular cause of death? The amoeba that eats one's brain comes to mind. I'm sure there are others, but don't many deadly infectious agents trigger some sort of domino chain reaction of the host's body vs. actually taking a proverbial external knife (brought in by the infectious agent) and "stabbing away" at a critical organ?
I believe that the CDC states that only 6% of the deaths were in those without comorbidities. That's very different than "...solely from COVID."
And, as someone in that article pointed out, 60-70% of Americans have comorbidities.
We'll never know how many of the 172,000 deaths with comorbiditty would still be alive. We do know that it's almost unheard of for nursing homes to have 18 deaths in a week or so. We know that lifespans of others were significantly shortened. We are also learning of the long-term effects on both survivors and carriers.
I won't feel safe until there is a vaccine from an international bio-med company. I'm rooting for Gates-funded CureVac but that's just me. I'm sure we all have our favorites.
Depends on the source, but under reporting. George Carlinist/Cannabis party. A good looking, mature sativa would do quite well in the presidential role. It would thrive on bullshit and make no empty promises.
Google "frivolous political parties" under wikipedia for some needed humor. - OWL party ....formed in a washington jazz club in '76, double acronym...Out With Logic, On With Lunacy.....motto, "We don't give a hoot". Fitting for any era.
If you say people didn't die of Covid because they has some sort of underlying condition then you also have to say that no one died of AIDS because they actually died of pneumonia. You can also take heart attacks off the list too. Just a bunch of overweight people dying of being overweight. That isn't how we count deaths. That is only the way the Republican disinformation machine wants us to count deaths.
Finally it isn't hard to figure out. We know how many people on average die year to year. Have more people died this year. Yes! What changed?
The number of corona deaths is under reported.... way ...under reported
It's blood clotting disorder, and it doesn't attack epithelial tissue like your typical flu bug, so testing your sinuses for it will often come up negative, even when you have it, or have been exposed to it. It put one young friend into renal failure with no prior health issues, while giving another friend multiple heart attacks / TIA's (transient ischemic attacks, or mini strokes). I posted an extremely detailed technical report on it here, but that didn't seem to gather any interest, not surprising, so much chest pounding around these parts....
There are very few on the zone who will not understand the nuances of assigning "cause of death".
Likewise, even the "Bryens & Thoms" around these parts will understand this, or at least to an extent.
However, it never ceases to amaze me how there are effing MILLIONS of people in this country who will interpret the latest CDC nugget in a much more "literal" sense (as it was politically intended to be as spin).
I don't believe these people are inherently dumb, but there are factors that enable such widespread perceptions.
I often find myself needing a "reality check" that this sort of perception is far more widespread than I give people credit for.
This leads me to believe that John Adams' more cynical "take" on people was far more on target than Jefferson's idealistic take; likewise, in regard to both of their respective approaches towards how we should govern ourselves.
>>>They" "know" how many deaths would have been expected over any time period. Subtract that number from the actual number of deaths, and voila - you have a pretty good estimate of the Covfefe-19 toll.
^^^this...based on comparing deaths to other years, under, and possibly by a lot.
Did you learn that tactic from "Bryen"?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'm not making a point about anything. I find JP-Sears to be pretty funny and posted a link to a video on a low activity drug band board where people used to talk about Phil Lesh tectonic bass bombs.
Without droning on like a bore, which is one of my specialties, COVID is obviously a considerable situation but one that has been mismanaged in colossus fashion by our clueless government factions, as well as the media, who are much easier to forgive as their intentions are at least easy to figure out.
Many Americans are nothing more than rubes (better than calling them dumb) who believe anything that an elected official or talking head spout. The saddest part of this whole thing, beyond the deaths, is the tragic triumphant of Government, Media and Social Streams working in lockstep to spread disinformation and make policies that have made a bad situation worse. This is a dark turn we are taking from a matrix perspective. Believe what you want, still a free country, kinda'.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Hitchhiker awaiting "true call"
How many more deaths have
How many more deaths have there been?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf
BSS. split the difference,
BSS. split the difference, nihlist
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ken D.
There have certainly been
There have certainly been Covid deaths that have not been reported. On the other hand, there are deaths that have been listed as being "caused" by Covid when the person simply had the virus and died of other causes. They probably cancel each other out.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Thumbkinetic
Under. Hedonist
Under. Hedonist
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: treat island
Under. Without testing there
Under. Without testing there were many cases that docs wouldn't sign off on as Covid-caused.
Ken, how do you separate the virus from dying from a stroke secondary to (caused by) the virus? Very tricky business.
Political affiliation? it's messy. But I will say I'm a cynical optimist and that's what informs my choices.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ken D.
>>>>>how do you separate the
>>>>>how do you separate the virus from dying from a stroke secondary to (caused by) the virus? Very tricky business.
It is tricky. In your example, I would say that it would be caused by Covid because the stroke was caused by the virus. I am not an epidemiologist or medical examiner, but personally, I think a "but for" causation test makes the most sense. In other words, if the person would have otherwise survived but for having Covid, then it would chalked up to the Covid. On the other hand, if the person would have otherwise died regardless of whether they had the Covid or not, then it would not be counted as such.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
<<On the other hand, if the
<<On the other hand, if the person would have otherwise died regardless of whether they had the Covid or not, then it would not be counted as such.>>
But they are counted, regardless if death is causative or correlative to covid-19. So, yeah, this is medical fraud, plain and simple.
Furthermore, the testing for covid-19 is very inaccurate, which would make the official death numbers even more suspect and erroneous.
Canadian author and long-time independent researcher, David Crowe, has written a new paper, “Antibody Testing for COVID-19.” (May 13, 2020). Some excerpts:
“The only jurisdiction with a formal structure for approval of antibody tests is the United States but, until very recently, it was a complete joke, as the test manufacturers did not need to provide validation data. Now it is only a partial joke, as validation data must be provided, but the FDA can only do a paper analysis. Imagine if auto-manufacturers had to build cars to certain EPA (US Environmental Protection Agency) fuel efficiency standards, but rather than sending a car to the EPA for testing, they could do the testing at their facilities, and just send the results in afterwards…”
“Antibody tests are often subject to cross-reactions with other conditions. This could be because the [other irrelevant] medical condition produces similar antibodies, or because something related to that [other] condition reacts with other test components. The choice of [cross-reacting] conditions to check for is completely under the control of the manufacturer and even when no cross reactions were found for a condition, the number of samples tested was so small that the possibility of a fairly high rate of false positive cross reactions still exists.”
“Positive antibody tests have only been found in a minority of people in the general population even where the virus is believed to have been circulating for months. These fractions are generally taken as truth, but one would expect a highly infectious virus to have spread much more widely…The one experiment that could show whether antibody tests are actually meaningful would be a time series of a large number of people who are currently negative on all tests. This experiment would be time consuming, inefficient (as many people would never become positive on any tests), intrusive (frequent nasal swabs and blood tests) and obviously very expensive. Those are practical considerations, but in the absence of such an experiment we are almost totally in the dark about COVID-19 antibody testing. Given the billions being spent on COVID and the trillions being lost by the economy, it surely is not impossible to do some worthwhile science.
https://theinfectiousmyth.com/coronavirus/AntibodyTestingForCOVID.pdf
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
"They" "know" how many deaths
"They" "know" how many deaths would have been expected over any time period. Subtract that number from the actual number of deaths, and voila - you have a pretty good estimate of the Covfefe-19 toll.
Realist.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ken D.
>>>>>Subtract that number
>>>>>Subtract that number from the actual number of deaths, and voila - you have a pretty good estimate of the Covfefe-19 toll.
I have read that is what some epidemiologists intend to do. Apparently, they have used that same methodologies in calculating heat wave deaths. The issue I see with that approach, however, is that the number would also include deaths related to the lock down measures, such as those caused by increased suicides, domestic violence, and substance abuse, as well as deaths from delayed treatment of other conditions in people who were too scared of the Covid to go to the hospital.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
You are correct, sir, but it
You are correct, sir, but it would still be useful combined/compared with other methodologies.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: long live the dead
Hey lassen
Hey lassen
what is your self label?
i like judit's
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Racketinmyhead
Haven't you heard?
Haven't you heard? Coronavirus is over, we've moved on to looting and riots.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: intentionally blank
Under. Groucho Marxist. I
Under. Groucho Marxist. I would never join a party that would have someone like me as a member.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dr. Benway
not a simple under/over -
not a simple under/over - likely from jan thru march, under reporting both deaths and infection rates
from april thru now, id guess they are over reporting deaths and under reporting infection rates
registered to vote under "no party affiliation"
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
"Hey lassen
"Hey lassen
what is your self label?"
I am an Ubuntu Contributionist
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: long live the dead
Tangent thanks Nancy for
Tangent thanks Nancy for making me aware of the free Covid testing
I really feel we are flying in the dark and making decisions with no data so I wanted to add one statistic by getting tested and yes I was negative ). And also tested negative(
I was confused when the location came up as Santa Clara when I searched for San Jose
But I was so stoked because I visited the ghost of Jimi Hendrix It was a Santa Clara County Fairgrounds Where I had seen him many moons ago And it basically was a seminal moment in my life
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: intentionally blank
> I am an Ubuntu
> I am an Ubuntu Contributionist
And for that my desktop thanks you. (Kubuntu actually, but still.)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
CDC Finds Only 6% Of
CDC Finds Only 6% Of Coronavirus Deaths Are Solely From COVID-19
https://www.ibtimes.com/cdc-finds-only-6-coronavirus-deaths-are-solely-c...
Nothing to see here. Please move it along and go back to watching CNN.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dr. Benway
what do you mean by "move it
what do you mean by "move it along nothing to see here"? we've known this for months - mortality from covid is high when you have existing health issues or risk factors, and it extremely low in younger and/or healthy people...nobody is trying to cover that up, its openly admitted and discussed by almost all medical experts on many platforms, including cnn
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
^ It's being politicized.
^ It's being politicized.
How does one establish COV19 as being a "direct cause of death"?
IOW, from a systemic perspective, can most pathologies resulting from infection ever be considered a singular cause of death? The amoeba that eats one's brain comes to mind. I'm sure there are others, but don't many deadly infectious agents trigger some sort of domino chain reaction of the host's body vs. actually taking a proverbial external knife (brought in by the infectious agent) and "stabbing away" at a critical organ?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I believe that the CDC states
I believe that the CDC states that only 6% of the deaths were in those without comorbidities. That's very different than "...solely from COVID."
And, as someone in that article pointed out, 60-70% of Americans have comorbidities.
We'll never know how many of the 172,000 deaths with comorbiditty would still be alive. We do know that it's almost unheard of for nursing homes to have 18 deaths in a week or so. We know that lifespans of others were significantly shortened. We are also learning of the long-term effects on both survivors and carriers.
Any way you cut it, there's plenty to see.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
I won't feel safe until there
I won't feel safe until there is a vaccine from an international bio-med company. I'm rooting for Gates-funded CureVac but that's just me. I'm sure we all have our favorites.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I already feel safe. The
I already feel safe. The standard precautions seem to work pretty well.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Strangha
No way to know. Pantheistic
No way to know. Pantheistic hedonist.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
Depends on the source, but
Depends on the source, but under reporting. George Carlinist/Cannabis party. A good looking, mature sativa would do quite well in the presidential role. It would thrive on bullshit and make no empty promises.
Google "frivolous political parties" under wikipedia for some needed humor. - OWL party ....formed in a washington jazz club in '76, double acronym...Out With Logic, On With Lunacy.....motto, "We don't give a hoot". Fitting for any era.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: long live the dead
Tattered
Tattered
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: treat island
I have worked with doctors
I have worked with doctors filling out death certificates. There can be more than one cause listed.
Listen to this short video about how it works, and science. Real doctor, real experience, real science. Not Trump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsVhY6QAzrU
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: El Nino
If you say people didn't die
If you say people didn't die of Covid because they has some sort of underlying condition then you also have to say that no one died of AIDS because they actually died of pneumonia. You can also take heart attacks off the list too. Just a bunch of overweight people dying of being overweight. That isn't how we count deaths. That is only the way the Republican disinformation machine wants us to count deaths.
Finally it isn't hard to figure out. We know how many people on average die year to year. Have more people died this year. Yes! What changed?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Druba
The number of corona deaths
The number of corona deaths is under reported.... way ...under reported
It's blood clotting disorder, and it doesn't attack epithelial tissue like your typical flu bug, so testing your sinuses for it will often come up negative, even when you have it, or have been exposed to it. It put one young friend into renal failure with no prior health issues, while giving another friend multiple heart attacks / TIA's (transient ischemic attacks, or mini strokes). I posted an extremely detailed technical report on it here, but that didn't seem to gather any interest, not surprising, so much chest pounding around these parts....
FUCK tRUMP, and his disinformation campaign!
(now on a lighter note)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
There are very few on the
There are very few on the zone who will not understand the nuances of assigning "cause of death".
Likewise, even the "Bryens & Thoms" around these parts will understand this, or at least to an extent.
However, it never ceases to amaze me how there are effing MILLIONS of people in this country who will interpret the latest CDC nugget in a much more "literal" sense (as it was politically intended to be as spin).
I don't believe these people are inherently dumb, but there are factors that enable such widespread perceptions.
I often find myself needing a "reality check" that this sort of perception is far more widespread than I give people credit for.
This leads me to believe that John Adams' more cynical "take" on people was far more on target than Jefferson's idealistic take; likewise, in regard to both of their respective approaches towards how we should govern ourselves.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: good at drinking water
based on comparing deaths to
>>>They" "know" how many deaths would have been expected over any time period. Subtract that number from the actual number of deaths, and voila - you have a pretty good estimate of the Covfefe-19 toll.
^^^this...based on comparing deaths to other years, under, and possibly by a lot.
e.g.: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/12/us/covid-deaths-us.html
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
https://www.youtube.com/watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0y6M-N8wOE
New Revelations on the COVID Death Count.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: good at drinking water
How do you explain the
How do you explain the elevated death counts, JP?
and no, I'm not watching your stupid video.
Did you learn that tactic from "Bryen"?
I've never once seen a zoner with a brain make an argument by pointing to youtube.
People with brains can explain the basics of their thinking.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: JP (J Bomb)
How do you explain the
How do you explain the elevated death counts, JP?
and no, I'm not watching your stupid video.
Did you learn that tactic from "Bryen"?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'm not making a point about anything. I find JP-Sears to be pretty funny and posted a link to a video on a low activity drug band board where people used to talk about Phil Lesh tectonic bass bombs.
Without droning on like a bore, which is one of my specialties, COVID is obviously a considerable situation but one that has been mismanaged in colossus fashion by our clueless government factions, as well as the media, who are much easier to forgive as their intentions are at least easy to figure out.
Many Americans are nothing more than rubes (better than calling them dumb) who believe anything that an elected official or talking head spout. The saddest part of this whole thing, beyond the deaths, is the tragic triumphant of Government, Media and Social Streams working in lockstep to spread disinformation and make policies that have made a bad situation worse. This is a dark turn we are taking from a matrix perspective. Believe what you want, still a free country, kinda'.
(((hugs)))
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Hitchhiker awaiting "true call"
https://mobile.twitter.com
https://mobile.twitter.com/sfchronicle/status/1300925395932459009
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: good at drinking water
Thanks for being civil, JP.
Thanks for being civil, JP.
Altho I must admit I have no idea what you are talking about (I am ignorant, infinitely so).
Can I ask you if you think the Covid death total is over or under the official 180,000 or so?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jazfish
and please don't forget the
and please don't forget the victims with long term health issues instead of just focusing on just death counts.