Civility and Freedom of Speech

Hear, hear!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw4lqwh5c1g

So it sounds more like you're not for civility or freedom of speech? It also sounds like you want to take a dictatorial take on the situation as opposed to a democratic one. When has that worked though? It seems many people believe that things are "at a tipping point", but there have been problems like this going on since you or anyone else has been alive in this country. Sounds more like you are looking for a fight based off of anger and resentment, and while that is always possible it is also nothing new. I don't judge anyone for taking tha stance but I think ultimately it's the wrong direction. If you choose to not treat people with love and respect then it just puts you in the same category of the people who you may resent. That's all I got for ya. Peace.

What was the question ? Is there an interpreter in the house ?

Uh yeah, vote good - fire bad

There is a time for everything.  

A time for riot and rage.

A time for vocal yet peaceful protest.

A time to say "shut the fuck up."

A time for civility and conversation with people who you strongly disagree with.

Never said love, respect or acceptance was are easy traits to practice, Chance. Some things we won't tolerate in general and it is what it is. Working together and accepting one another is extremely difficult but it is also the definition of civility isn't it? Maybe you should read your OP again. You are belittling and condescending in a manner that just makes you look like the same people you claim to be against. You can sit there and say "I don't have to be nice" and be grumpy and act like a primadonna if you like.  Just my opinion, that's not much of a better stance. It makes you look foolish, while I can tell you're not that's what anger does to people. I have morals and stick by them, sure. There's some folks I don't hang around and leave it at that. You don't have to be nice, but that issue in end is built up mainly inside yourself. We are all humans. We all make mistakes and all come from different backgrounds. Again, if you're look for a war that is always possible. That's where hatred and anger leads. The media seems to be desperately trying to pin the country to two sides. I won't partake in it and I just think that you're both wrong. Good luck with whatever you think you will find inside the hatred you seek though. 

>>> I'm kind of tired of being civil and pretending that all opinions have value. <<

Though a tireless proponent of civility and respect in community, I don't see any reason to think that all opinions have value. A lot of people are full of shit, dangerous stupid shit, for instance your examples above.

I think that the way we communicate with people in chosen community matters. I will never knowingly have KKK members as part of my personal community, I view them as killers and perpetuators of hate - my possible lack of civility in their cases is ok. I guess we have to look at context to decide about civility.

We go round and round about civility at Viva. My opinion/view is that disagreeing about an opinion is good and important, being an asshole to people, calling people stupid cunt bitches here isn't. Make it about the topic or opinion, not the person. I feel strongly about that. Okay, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Chancellor, thanks for coming by. You are missed.

I didn't mention that I agree with the value and moral on which your standing. 100%. I don't exactly have any kind of argument to make either. I try to be open minded about things and not in a drug experimentation kinda way. As for your example, whether or not I personally believe that some opinions are of value (and admittedly I don't see value in a lot of opinions) I work on accepting the fact that people have the right to those opinions and beliefs. Now that's a lot easier said than done and especially in the moment. I'm in no way different in the sense that if I get pushed in a corner I become defensive. The one thing that I do have today is an awareness of where acting on certain feelings has taken me in the past. Feelings like anger and guilt have caused me to make horrible decisions that I regretted and had to work to accept for myself. I try to stay away from that today at all costs. Again, I can only speak for myself. People come from all different backgrounds and all levels of intellect. We are also hyper manipulated by a hyper competitive society. I guess when I think about it in fundamentals, it's an overall issue with our humanity and it's something we all have to make sacrifices that we won't like to make. It is easier for me to say this than to do this. Saying something means nothing really. Actions have to be taken in a positive direction. Anyways, maybe that's not what anyone is looking to hear and can't get anything from but it also may be a different POV that could help someone.

Everybody's got an opinion & an asshole. 
There is a notion that some can disagree without being disagreeable. 
I'm open to civil discourse. With some folks, that approach doesn't work. 
When that happens, for me it is better to walk away then carry on. 
YMMV. 

Chance w/no shits to give?  I'm making popcorn!

Good to see you around, Brother.

ive found that listening to the wrong point of view, freely and thoughtfully expressed, can help reign in the excesses of the right point of view

^Daylight with his (?) usual wisdom.

HI, Chancellor.

< open to civil discourse

No shit. Chance should have been around here the last year or so. We were pretty civil till it was no longer possible. Minds closed shut no matter the facts presented. The voices of insanity just getting louder and louder. We got riled up a bit now n then, but all in all we handled the adversity pretty well. Was the adversaries that melted away.  

When you live among wolves

Mr. Timpy....you have the freedom to not use paragraphs, but it is very uncivil.

>>We were pretty civil till it was no longer possible.

I guess stopping in to my Tool birthday show thread to call me a tool bag for buying a ticket to the show is civility.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgQ7LSs7ZqA

Funny the shit people hold onto

>>> ive found that listening to the wrong point of view, freely and thoughtfully expressed, can help reign in the excesses of the right point of view <<<

Got ranch for that word salad?

That's some Ted Cruz shit right there.

voting blue no matter who is voting for systemic racism. 

Who should we vote for then? For real.

Like, names....

Hey Chance, go fuck yourself with your stupid-ass, half-baked ideas you moron! No one needs you around here spouting off your stupid shit!

Mind you, that's not how I feel, but that's more or less what the breakdown of civility looks like, doesn't it? What if I think your ideas are wrong? Who decides? Are you the one with the ultimate moral compass and you just know exactly where that line is? And since you have this magical power, should I assume that all human beings possess it too, and that all human beings have the right to decide (as you have) what is the right and wrong thought?

This is why civil discourse exists. It's easy to point to the extreme ideologies and single them out as being "wrong", but even then it's important to understand how and why people got there. Otherwise you'll never be able to help solve the issue at hand.

And Chance, while you've always been mostly civil, you've often been a bit of a condescending prick to people who think differently than you on certain topics, for example the differences between Democrats and Republicans or the actual significance of voting. Maybe you're just coming to terms with the fact that you're a curmudgeon who no longer wants to pretend to care what other people think if it doesn't agree with his perspective? Maybe you've just already made up your mind about what is right and wrong in a dogmatic and concrete way that allows no room for intellectual questioning. Maybe your ideas are fragile and can't handle the barrage of opposing thoughts. Maybe not, I don't know. But if you give up on civil discourse than what does it matter anyways?

He’s stating his realization that there just really isn’t room for civil discourse with people who are committed to being uncivil, javs.

>>> And Chance, while you've always been mostly civil, you've often been a bit of a condescending prick to people who think differently than you on certain topics <<<

pot meet kettle

javs and timpy need to go outside for a walk.

I think y'all missed the spirit of chancellor's post.

The Trump administration has surrounded themselves, and their knuckle-dragging supporters, with a bubble of misinformation.  It's gone way past difficult, to nearly impossible, having a civil conversation with people that believe an entirely different set of facts and "alternative truths".

We need to vote the bum out in November and put these mouth-breathers back in their cages.

That may be the spirit of the post, but the literal interpretation of the post is that Chance has decided he is right and therefore does not have to be civil to people he thinks are wrong. If you start out from that idea, then there's really no room for growth, there's no where to go from there. What if everybody took that stance? At the end of the day, everyone is convinced they're right, even Klansmen and molotov throwing anarchists.

"Chance has decided he is right and therefore does not have to be civil to people he thinks are wrong"

Didn't talk radio, fox news, and the entire "conservative" movement do this a long time ago?

Pot kettle fucking black.

Thank you Chance!

"pot meet kettle"

I haven't always succeeded at civil discourse, but I'm not the one giving up, either...

Poor chance is probably outside sulking on his stump. :(

> I'm kind of tired of being civil and pretending that all opinions have value.

I hear you on the being civil thing. It seems like more and more people these days think it's okay to be uncivil, while insisting on being treated civilly. The current occupant of the White House and his minions are just one example of those who propagate this kind of dissonance.

I've never had a problem with pretending that all opinions have value though. The First Amendment grants us freedom of expression, but it does not establish, or make mention of, the value of things expressed. People have the right to express themselves, but that doesn't mean that what they have to say has any real significance, unless the receiver of the message imbues it with import. Like right now, for example, you might be thinking that I'm a complete ass for posting what I just posted, or because of something else I've posted before, but it's still my right to post. You, on the other hand, have the choice to respond, or to just keep scrolling, which is a tactic that works in places other than the black screen too.

unfortunately, like covid-19, there is no cure for stupid.

https://archive.org/details/gd91-10-31.sbd.gardner.2897.sbeok.shnf

>>>hat may be the spirit of the post, but the literal interpretation of the post is that Chance has decided he is right and therefore does not have to be civil to people he thinks are wrong.<<<

well, yeah. If you’re someone who believes genocide is just another “outcome” in the marketplace of ideals...

dont be a fuckin dolt man

Javs not succeeding 

succinct

We can actively oppose someone's stance while still being civil. My experience is that being a shit to someone while trying to change their behavior/opinions either doesn't work or takes a lot longer. We've got no time to waste.

>>> it's time for non-racists all people to stand up and become anti-racists <<<

Yes, non-racists, but really, all people.

Maybe, Chance, but you're got to be the right kind of shit to get through to them. The wrong kind of shit just closes people off to hearing it or thinking about it.

Yes, anti implies action. ACT UP! changed a lot of people's thinking about HIV/AIDS.

You may be right that they're already closed off, and I certainly agree about letting them know they need to stop. Not only making it clear that some things aren't welcome but aren't tolerated. Our expression of the depth of feeling and passion (and anger, and yes, sometimes fear)  that we bring to those messages may cause things to go one of two ways - reaction against our person and our message, or getting them to feel it, too. It may too fine a line to finesse when time is of the essence.

I'm a physically non-violent person and that informs some of my opinions. The other thing is that I can be a very mean person and have worked for the last 55 years on finding other ways. Maybe I'm holding on to those changes too strongly for efficacy in these times that require important change, but maybe not.

a week or 2 ago, my buddy was over when my neighbor came by. he is a mexican man in his late 60's....there were more protests going on and he asked if we had watermelons to throw... i was like, "wha wha?". i know he is a fox newser...but i asked my friend if i just heard that right?  pretty hard to change a racist, also shocking when they are a "minority" who, you would think would be sympathetic to police abuse....

Your son's safety, life and future depend on what happens and changes. You take your responsibilities for him seriously, as they must be taken; when you brought him into your family you took that on. We'll all benefit from your actions in the end.

I appreciate how you look at life.

>'m wondering if it's better to just assume certain people with certain opinions are already closed off<

my anti- antifa right winger friend, you would assume he may be racist. he is not, he is with a so. african woman. he thinks antifa is taking over seattle tho...