enter, shop, dine 'at your own risk'

I agree. You can't get anymore sick in any other shop than you can at a Walmart, Target or Home Depot. The state governments can claim that they want stop the disease from spreading but it can still spread at any "essential" business that is and had been open. The shutdowns ultimately are just destroying small businesses everywhere. The shutdowns did not stop covid from hurting the elderly. Don't go to the shops f you don't feel comfortable but many places aren't getting a dime and bank leases and mortgages still want their money. 

If you don't want to listen to the epidemiologists and the science.

because covid don't care about your damn business

and you're so worried about your wallet vs loss of life.

because everybody in the world is going through this

Then why the fuck should I care whether you get sued?

In many cases, it will be so hard to prove where an individual got the Covid that most lawsuits will end up being dismissed.  The lack of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow will largely disincentivize the filing of lawsuits by consumers claiming that they got sick from visiting a particular business.

On the other hand, a large proportion of Covid deaths and serious illness are associated with nursing homes where the residents aren't going out on the town and its pretty easy to prove where they got it .   Those places are so mismanaged to begin with that it also won't be hard to show how the nursing home's conduct fell below the applicable standard of care.   In Oregon, over a quarter of the state's Covid deaths occurred at a single nursing home and it is already subject to a lawsuit.

>>> In many cases, it will be so hard to prove where an individual got the Covid that most lawsuits will end up being dismissed.  The lack of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow will largely disincentivize the filing of lawsuits by consumers claiming that they got sick from visiting a particular business.<<<

>>> On the other hand, a large proportion of Covid deaths and serious illness are associated with nursing homes <<<

not to mention meat packing plants, amazon warehouses, ups/fed-ex, airlines, food processing plants,

factory farms etc,etc,etc...

so corporations and the CEOs that make the decisions that human capital stock are expendable,

shouldn't be held responsible from death and or illness that was preventable?

I'm glad Governor Cuomo supported the rights of business owners to require patrons to wear masks.  The people whining that their rights are being trampled on can go take their business somewhere else.  Businesses have had exclusionary policies like "No shirts, No shoes, No Business" for a long time.  It's their prerogative and you can be damned well sure that my health is my prerogative.

If a business follows the same rules as Walmart or target or costco then they should be allowed to open. What's the science behind people piling on top of each at places like shop right and Giant? Traffic in and out, they have no idea if people are sick or not. How can governments try to exclude other business from being open? It just doesn't make any sense. 

Thod, all the places that you just mentioned are open and have not shut down this entire time. What makes them more important than any shop? How is Amazon "essential"? So people can get stupid things they don't need in 48 hrs? 

Timpy, for perspective, do you order stuff from Amazon?

the point paintchips, is that we need to keep people from congregating all free range and shit.

ya know?

what good is your business if you're sick or dead? smh

Then why don't you go start a big stink at your local Home Depot? There's lines of hundreds of people out here. Then shop right says they're counting people but that's also a lie. You're logic just doesn't make any sense. And people won't have businesses after this. They won't have houses either but your logic is that they could possibly get someone sick? So once again, the social distancing and wearing a mask has not stopped the virus from reaching the most vulnerable. Did anyone want them to die? No, they didn't. Unfortunately more elderly will most definitely perish and there doesn't seem like anything we can do to stop that. If a hair salon who holds a standard of safety and holds 15 people should be allowed to open. 

Ned, no I rarely order anything from Amazon and would never consider it essential. 

So, you do order stuff from Amazon. Got it.

My last few orders were for Nutrile gloves (for work) and bike tubes (bike shop was closed).

^^ Do you believe the epidemiologists or scientists?

T.O.D., for balance, how many people have died from COVID-19 in the stores that have remained open?  It would appear that by limiting  the amount of patrons, enforcing distancing protocols, washing your hands or using hand sanitizer regularly, and requiring masks, the risks of infection are minimal.  Mr. Timpane's question about who decides what is "essential" is being acutely felt by many businesses.  It's pretty humbling to be told your livelihood isn't essential.

I will personally monitor my store and shut it back down if I feel being open is putting anyone's health at extreme risk.  I would appreciate that choice, instead of being told what to do by a government that collects business permit and signage fees from me regardless if they let me operate or not.  

dave I get it, but the ones collecting your fees are the same ones skewing and suppressing the information 

that allows you to believe that what your doing is ok as long as your "safe".

the point is the epidemiologists and scientists are saying something way different.

this shit is in the 1st inning of a double-header and I'm going with science.

ymmv

>>> I will personally monitor my store and shut it back down if I feel being open is putting anyone's health at extreme risk. <<<

since you take responsibility for others lives coming into your store, do you have problem with them suing you,

if you are found to have enabled people to get sick?

or 

is that ridiculous?

They have the choice to enter, so I think that proposition is baseless.

TOD lawsuits are nothing new. That's why we get general liability insurance.

wow.

everybody for themselves...

you get sick and die, it's your own damn fault.

thing is we don't know enough about this contagion

but who cares, I gotta hustle.

ignorance is bliss until you get intubated.

of course ned, but is a global pandemic the same thing as slipping on something in your establishment?

You're over-thinking this TOD.

Sounds like you want there to be no public anything. I have been working and in/out of people's homes during this whole crisis. Taking steps to protect them and me. It is possible to "survive" being in public.

My larger concern is for the people who are too dumb or stubborn to take proper precautions and think of anyone but themselves.  
 

Although we are closed to the general public, I am in my store every day, mostly managing on-line sales as well as other business related issues.  Our building superintendent hasn't turned off the radiator heat yet, although I have requested it twice now.  The pipes that conduct the heat to the rest of the building run through my space, and when the radiator cycles on, give off ambient heat despite my not having the heat on in my space.  I have to keep my door open and have three fans running to keep it cool enough to work.  
 

Usually I keep the gate locked at the top of my stairs, and the "Closed" sign up, but even so, a couple of folks have crawled through the gate, maskless, to investigate.   Yesterday, I was expecting a delivery from the USPS, so I left the gate unlocked, with the "Closed" sign hanging on it l, and a handwritten sign next to it telling the postman to enter and everyone else that we are closed.  I still had a couple of guys come down, not wearing masks, asking if we were open, and wanting to hang out and chat after I told them we weren't, that they could call me to place orders or for information, but that I wanted them to leave.  
 

Reopening is not a given.  If people are going to be defiant or careless, then the hassle and risks of dealing with that won't be worth it, and I'll remain closed to the public and continue selling online or arrange curbside pick-up.  If that remains the status quo, though, I will have to look for a less expensive location to operate out of.  

In a way, there is an unwritten social contract between brick and mortar businesses and their patrons.  We have to look out for each other's interests.  Each party risks losing the other if they forget this.

I hear what you're saying ned and dave you're gonna do whatever you think it is that works for you,

your choice.

what we do know is this contagion is behaving in ways never seen before in a virus.

so being that we're in the 1st inning of the doubleheader...

we don't actually know that all these precautions people are taking are actually working...

we're getting suppressed #s in cases and deaths.

the I feel fine I'm wearing a mask doesn't mean you can't get it or spread it.

also, I'm a firm believer there will not be a vaccine to stop it.

economic pain is real, so is sickness and death.

the path forward is rocky and dark.

So have you not walked into a store for two months? Do you get everything delivered?

>> you're gonna do whatever you think it is that works for you, your choice. <<

Actually, I have been following the guidance and recommendations from CDC, the State of Colorado and my local health dept. But thanks for whatever your thought was.

>>> So have you not walked into a store for two months? Do you get everything delivered? <<<

we go out for groceries every other week

Recommendations from trump's CDC, that should protect you...

Strong shaming by Thod. Crunchy

whose shaming?

we don't know enough about covid and people are gonna do their thing.

regardless, here we are.

Silly TOD....life is risky. I am wearing a mask/gloves when appropriate, washing frequently. What is your problem with that?

if you're good with it, you're good with it.

I'm takin' a different path, I'll maybe start assessing around the 7th inning stretch of game 1.

although it looks like their might be a rain delay, storms a' brewing...

Haven't ordered anything from amazon in over a year, at least, Ned. Easy to live without it, tbh.

Amazon for essential stuff you can't buy in stores is a huge asset. Groceries are available, too, but I do one haul at the store weekly.

What are you going to do to get through the new storm, Thod?

Thod you're really missing the point of what I was saying. Yes, I believe scientists. What I'm saying is show me the "science" that says going to a Walmart is "safer" than another establishment trying to follow the protocols. If anything an individual is probably a lot more at risk going to a large department store where hundreds of people traffic in and out every day than a local town shop or vendor. I have read a lot from different doctors and scientists and it seems like the only thing that's 100% conclusive is that none of them really have a 100 percent understanding of the virus, and most of the studies have been inconsistent for treatment and they are just overall struggling for answers in a lot of areas. While I Understand that is scary and inhibits fear for many of us, at some point people will have to continue with their lives and business owners, if they choose to, have a good case for reopening.

I've been absolutely fine with local stores for most things. I'm also not a shop junkie so I don't really care for most items a lot of people desire. If you like amazon, I get it, I just don't use it and wouldn't consider it more essential than something like a hair salon.

We agree, Timpy.

>>> My larger concern is for the people who are too dumb or stubborn to take proper precautions and think of anyone but themselves. <<< 

Thanks, Dave, shouldn't that be what's important? Helping your friends and neighbors by taking care.

It's painful that some so many might see this as a litigious event... there's so much of that. Personal responsibility, what's that?

I haven't ordered from Amazon in years (I don't want to support Jeff Bezos, who doesn't give to help save the world nor help his employees). I haven't been in a store since the beginning of March (I order ahead - my regular grocery stores bring it out to my car), the meat market delivers, a couple of my friends feel safe shopping in larger (local) stores and pick up the occasional thing I don't get at my regular stores). I'm so fortunate that this works for me as a physically vulnerable person.

Wash your hands, wear a good mask, wash your hands, rinse and repeat.

I agree TP, less people the better.

still neither are safe, no matter what precautions.

you wanna play covid roulette going into shared spaces, counting on owners and people 

to do the right thing on the regular?

again, have at it.

I'll wait for more data

I bought some stuff on Amazon with my stimulus money. 

The wife likes Amazon a lot. She calls and complains if they don't deliver same day when they said they would. They give 10$ off coupons for that

I have never bought anything off of Amazon, but just got a book in the mail I ordered from Powells.  

Went to Xicha brewpub in Salem yesterday after a day trip into the Coast Range.  They had outdoor seating and it was my first sit down meal at a restaurant since March.   There was a line out the door but they had it spaced out and managed well.  I guess they are no longer enforcing the ban on single use plastic items.