This morning I got my closet set up, and planted six seeds: Two Tahoe Kush, one Durban Poison, one Blueberry Kush, one Blue Dream, and one Skywalker OG.
Five beans out of six emerged after five days, and the replacement for number six emerged today, so we're up and running. Can't wait to get past the ultra-fragile stage in a couple of weeks.
No one growing this year? About 7 weeks in and I kept 3 plants that seem healthy even though we have had a ton of rain. Gave away 3 so all my plants are container based. Just started adding that kelp humbolt stuff this week, gonna top dress the containers with worm castings this weekend
I got a late start again this year, due to my still not figuring out the proper distance for a cheap LED I picked up last year. My first run got stunted, so I replanted around the start of May using a buddy's T5 florescent light instead of the LED. Then once I got them moved outside, the freakishly long, late spring cold weather (which I love) didn't help either. Things are looking pretty good now, even if they're behind where I'd like them to be.
From left to right, they are a couple of Gelato autoflowers I started on June 1st, a Skywalker OG, and a couple of Tahoe Kushes.
And for next year, I'm picking up a good florescent panel for my starts.
Peanut butter. It's like crack for rodents, and sticks to the trigger plate really well.
A little background. We never had ground squirrels here until a few years ago. We have grey squirrels, but they seem to eat pine nuts and little else. Ground squirrels love green stuff, and are incredibly bold and destructive. I found one climbing up my kitchen window screen a couple of years ago trying to get to a bird feeder (that's since been retired). Freaked out my cat pretty good.
Then one of my neighbors put in a chicken coop a few years ago, and suddenly we had an explosion of ground squirrels. Year before last, I killed 12, last year 17, and this year 10 so far. I've got them fairly well controlled at this point, but there's still a couple I see from time to time. Lately I've taken to shooing them away with a Daisy P51 slingshot loaded with steel shot I recently acquired. I've hit them a few times, but mostly just let them know that this hostile territory for them. So far, it seems to be working, but it's an uneasy peace.
So I am about 9 weeks in and my plants are about 28" tall, not sure if that is average for the strain I'm growing "Northern Lights". They look beautiful but I thought I would have these monster plants on my patio and they are not that. I did this strain as I have smoked it in the past and really enjoyed it as well as it being toted as a easy plant to grow. The research says the plants average around 30" tall, is this true, anyone grown Northern lights before? I will try and post some pics when I can.
jklowan, your plants will continue to gain height as they shift into flowering. They have a growth spurt (stretch) to make room for the buds to develop.
I haven't grown Northen Lights, but I'm reading it grows to 3-5 feet when grown indoors. If you're growing n 25 gallon pots outdoors, I'd say you can expect plants bigger than that (assuming everything else is good).
Thanks Mike, I tried the tip you posted in the 22 grow thread on trimming the top and it in fact now has two tops, wish I had done all 3, oh well next year :)
Looking good, jklowan. One of the effects of topping is it directs growth outward instead of upward, so your plants will be shorter than if you hadn't topped them and they'll get bushier too.
The first year I grew, I did a single topping and learned a lot from observing how the plant grew after that manipulation. What I've found since is that three toppings, which produces eight tops, is just about ideal. I did a fourth topping at one point for sixteen tops per plant, and found that to be a bit much to manage late in the season.
This year because of my late start I haven't done any topping, so each of my plants has a single top and more of a conical Christmas tree shape than a rounder bush shape. I just measured them and they're all just over three feet. I'm just starting to see pre-flowers on my photos, so I'm guessing they'll end up in the 4-5 foot range.
I also have one autoflower that started flowering after 4.5 weeks that's about two and a half feet tall. She's the first success (so far) I've had with autoflowers. They seem to be really finicky; I've had several seedlings just up and die early in the game, and a second auto I have going now (same strain, planting date, and growing conditions) is only about a foot tall and just starting to flower after 6 weeks.
The Blue Dream I grew last year turned out well. It's a nice balanced high, and the terps are strong and full-bodied.
This is the first time I've had any success with autoflowers. I started a few in the middle of last summer, but then a heat wave hit just after they emerged, and wiped them all out.
This year, I started these two autoflowers on June 2nd. They're the same strain (Gelato from Homegrown Cannabis Co.), and have had the exact same growing conditions, but their development is quite different as you can see.The tall one is 30 inches from the soil up, and the small one is 13.
The larger of the two started flowering two weeks ago, on July 7th, and the buds are starting to stack up nicely. I'm thinking it should yield an ounce or two. The smaller one started flowering earlier this week, and I'll be surprised if it yields more than about a quarter ounce of finished bud, but maybe an eighth is more realistic.
My photos shifted to flowering last week, and the tall auto above is stacking up nicely. She should be ready to harvest in about 4-5 weeks, I'm thinking.
It's hard to tell for sure because those pictures are kind of small, but the first two pics look like they might be males. The structures I've circled in red look like they could be pollen sacs forming.
Looks like it is just one, I have moved it away from the other 2 just in case, wait and see I guess. I suppose I will use it for seeds if it happens to be mail. They do look like seeds to me, the other 2 look different.
I was hoping you'd check back here soon. The first pics are definitely males; the last one looks like it might be a female. Here's a couple of reference pics I found on the net of early flowering.
Female (distinguished by the white hairs, or stigmas):
Male:
The male flower develops into a sac, which will eventually open up and release pollen. You can collect the pollen before the sac busts and manually apply it to female flowers if you want to make seeds, but you really need to be super careful with the pollen. If the sacs bust on their own, the stuff can travel for miles in the air, which can be destructive for other outdoor grows in your area. You also need to be super careful handling pollen because you can get it on your hands or clothes and not know it and inadvertently pollinate females.
A lot of folks would tell you to cut down the male plants ASAP and bag them or burn them. Making your own seeds is kind of advanced, whereas buying seed is relatively inexpensive these days, even for feminized seeds.
Thanks all, I guess in the grand scheme I'm good as 2 look like females, I will kill the male as much as that will hurt. I thought the male plant developed the seeds. Best to just kill em now and be safe. glad you all are here, thanks
I guess what surprises me is I thought these were female seeds so I really hadn't paid that close attention to that part, just focused on fert and feeding to keep em healthy. Glad I noticed something was off before it was to late and you guys were able to confirm. I picked up these seeds from http://agseedco.com/ and after all the positive reviews hadn't thought that would be an issue. Hope the 2 fem that I have survive. So much stuff to learn. again thanks
I'm not familiar with that seed vendor, but their website says "Q: Are the seeds regular or feminized? All of the seeds in the Todd McCormick collection are regular seeds."
And jklowan, I feel your pain. Seriously. Growing is a long term project and we get attached to our green babies, and it hurts like hell to get to August and have to kill them sometimes. You've got some healthy looking plants though, and I hope the two that remain are girls so you can enjoy the fruits of your labors.
One more thing about growing. It's all about learning, and taking what you learned this year and applying it next year, and over and over again.
Thanks Mike, I'll be sure to pay closer attention next year. What sucks is I gave away 5 plants, should have held onto them all till the sex was determined. Live and learn. Gotta seach out some female indica seeds for next year
Well, my original plan for the year was 7 photos and 6 autos. I lowered that to 5 and 4, respectively. One photo was a mutant auto, so down to 4. Then came the flood. My autos all bit the dust. One photo literally floated away. A fireman said he saw her go by him it at 2 am as he was kayaking down the street. A wonderful news reporter helped me rescue 2 plants that were caught 8' up in an apple tree. So, it's just 3 now.
Scooby Snack took a beating in the flood but has battled back like a champ. She's well into flower and seems to need a lot of Cal/Mag right now. Purple Punch got a bit shocked, but it flowering and healthy. The there's G13, the government bud that seems impervious to anything you throw at it. She has no spots, no insects, and is over 8' tall right now. However, she's just leaving pre-flower and needs 9-11 weeks. She best be cold resistant too!
>>Gotta seach out some female indica seeds for next year
Post here in February and I'll send you some. I've got Purple Punch, DosiDo, Good Leaf, and maybe 1 or 2 other indica dominant strains. I've found that the more pure indicas don't do well in Vermont because it gets way too humid. The buds never get super dense, they are prone to rot, and they're a pain to trim. That 70/30 is the sweet spot. Two years ago I got 39 oz off 2 Good Leaf alone, and it's a really nice buzz.
Good to see you, BK. Sorry to hear about your flood damage, but three plants should still fill some jars. At least that's what I'm telling myself after my reboot and late start,
Awesome offer BK, sorry bout your plants' The 2 I have left are in fact females :) and seem to be flowering nicely, starting to smell wonderful in my backyard
Hilary soaked and still standing. We got 3 inches of rain, but the winds were light, and the buds aren't very big yet, so the branches didn't get weighed down.
I am worried about my plants. We have had a crazy amount of rain the last week. 4" on Sat and 2" on monday. The hairs on my buds have all turned from white to brownish and the wonderful smell is now gone. Hopefully I can salvage these 2 and don't get bud rot. Such a bummer to start with so many plants give some away and then realize I have some males and now bud rot.
You'll be okay and will probably still have more than you need. A few things can help. The first is vigilance. At the first sign of rot, cut it out, as well as the surrounding area. You don't have to take off the entire bud. Sterilize you clippers.
Create airflow. It's fine to pull off fan leaves, or even cut off small branches that are hindering it.
Be vigilant with spraying, both for insects that carry the bacteria, and for fungus and bacteria. I use Grower's Ally and Flower Shield. Do what you can to make it a not so nice environment for all the nasties out there. I even gave a final spray of Neem this evening.
The foreground is Scooby Snacks. She's stacking nicely and very crystally but I've been battling calcium deficiency, and hi h you can see on the leaves. Neither of the other 2 plants are deficient.
The Background is G13. She's about 10' tall and as you can see, hasn't yet started stacking. I have low hopes that she'll ripen in time because she just started full flowering maybe 2 weeks ago.
moved them into my garage this morning, poured for 2 hrs and the sun came out so I moved em back on the patio and it just started down pouring again :)
What size pots, BK? Or are you doing them in free soil now?
My autoflower Gelato is getting near harvest, I think. She's 9.5 weeks into flower and only has scattered amber trichs on some leaves. I'm really looking forward to harvesting this one. She's sticky and real sweet-smelling, and even though she's foxtailed, the bud structure is interesting. Big, fat swollen calyxes that are pretty dense. I'm thinking I'll wet trim her to preserve the bud structure as much as possible. And I'm guessing she'll yield about 3 ounces of finished bud, which, for a 3-gallon pot isn't too shabby, I think.
Photos should be ready in about 3-4 weeks, I'm thinking. My year got off to rough, late start, but I'm looking at some fat buds that are stinking the place up real good.
BK, yeah these plants are smallish, grew them in 25gallon flexible pots so I was hoping they would be bigger, they will end up about 4ft each. My guess is I will end up with maybe 4-5 oz off these 2 plants we will see, I think I am 2-3 weeks out so maybe these buds will continue to fatten up and up the total yields, fingers crossed. I need to find more sun next year I think, Maybe do a ledge on my garage/Breezeway and water them from my office :).
Foxtailing isn't a simple thing to describe, judit. It's a genetic trait of some strains; in others it's a deformity of the bud structure due to stress, and especially excessive heat during flowering.
In either case, the buds don't develop in the typical circular/conical pattern; instead, the calyxes stack up on top of each other in narrow chains. But potency isn't effected, and neither are taste or aroma. You just don't get the kind of dense, uniform buds we've become accustomed to.
Here's a pic from the plant I chopped yesterday. Again, this is a Gelato autoflower, and from what I've been reading, it either has foxtailing in its genes, or it's prone to it. Plus, autoflowers are known to do some weird things, so this one will just have to be left to mystery.
We did have our one little heat wave of about 10 days right about the time it started flowering, so I don't know if I'm looking at nature or nurture, but it's sticky and stinky as all get out and I can't wait to sample it in a few weeks.
A lot of people don't see foxtailing as desirable, but I think it's kinda cool. I don't usually wet trim, but I made an exception for this one because I want to keep as much of her bud structure intact as I can.
So this year is officially a learning experience as with the last 3 weeks of rain here in the northeast my plants have bud rot :( Pretty much a total loss even though I was bringing them into the garage during the rain, just to wet here this season. Big time bummer, better luck next year. Hope you all get healthy crops and yeilds, I will be forced to continue my dispensary visits till next fall.
Well that sucks big time. You might want to consider a small greenhouse for next year. They complicate the game in some ways (e.g. heat management and the need for air circulation), but can also reduce your exposure to insects and the elements.
And speaking of insects, I found my first budworm damage of the year this morning. One brown leaf amidst the green. I had to lop off the affected top, which you always hate to do, but I don't want to be smoking caterpillar poop, and it was only 2-3 grams.
I harvested my Skywalker last Saturday and it should be headed for jars tomorrow. Then I'll take down one of my Tahoe Kushes, and the second one of those will come down next weekend. It's been a weird season here, but things are going to turn out okay, and that's a blessing.
<<< I found my first budworm damage of the year this morning. One brown leaf amidst the green. I had to lop off the affected top, which you always hate to do, but I don't want to be smoking caterpillar poop, and it was only 2-3 grams.>>
That's good that you removed it immediately! If you didn't in a few days your entire plant could have Botrytis due to that Caterpillar poop infecting the plant. This can seemingly happen overnight.
I know this because it happened to me last year with a fully grown Chocolate Thai plant that was destroyed in that way. I was in a funk for several days afterward and vowed 'never again!'
I'd say Botrytis is the single most dangerous element lurking when growing outdoors.
Yesterday evening I harvested Scooby, about a week before I would have liked. The sugar leaves were turning brown and dying, which is a recipe for rot. I figured better safe than sorry. Amazingly, and in spite of our crazy weather and the stress she faced, there was absolutely no rot.
She'll yield maybe 4-5 oz, which is low, but I can't complain. That girl floated away in the flood and we rescued her using a canoe, 6' up in an apple tree. She was mangled and on her side, and had lost half her soil. Any yield is a harvest miracle.
This is right after the rescue. I had taken the news reporter, Katharine, in my canoe to do a live broadcast, and after we were done we were touring the carnage. She spotted it, and helped me rescue it. We then did a canoe rescue of Purple Punch. I talked to her last week and she said it was the highlight of her day, a positive among the crap. She took the pic.
For the sake of time I cheesed out and used the salad spinner trimmer. I normally dry trim, but those brown sugar leaves made me pivot. The entire plant took an hour to trim.
Another nice harvest, Mike!! Beautiful plants!! Never gets old ;-)
jklowan....nice job on you first grow! Getting anything to harvest on your first time out is pretty good, especially outdoors. Next year will be pounds... ;-)
Briank - lol....that picture of you smiling while standing in a flood with your rescued plant made me laugh a lot! That is badass and deserves a spot in High Times for perseverance. That story is amazing! I hope you and your family are well and recovering, High Times story headline:: Deadhead Loses Everything in Flood, Remains Jubilant Upon Recovering Herbage. ;)
Thanks, joe. I sent you something in the mail today (that's a switch, right?). And I've been meaning to ask you about your Colorado trip too. Sounds like you had yourself a nice little adventure.
Thanks for the heads up, Mike. it was nice. 5 days. Left Saturday night at 8, drove all night and got to Denver around 7am Sunday. Lots of people out exercising. We drove through Vail and Aspen just to see stupid money, and we did. Stopped at Red Rocks, first time. It doubles as a public workout space when there are no acts. We found some folks at the top of the seats and joined them for a joint and coffee while we watched people work out.....lol.....birds of a feather. Mostly a sight seeing trip and found some good camping spots, also.. Tent camped in the White River National Forest for 2 nights at 9k elevation....did ok in the light air. That place is beautiful and silent. Just silent. Drove out to Rifle where a friend worked at a grow. Rifle is the furthest west I've ever been. Relatively cheap trip too; grocery stores, tents and bnb's.
So I dried and saved what bud I could, I'd say may 2 ozs. Super sticky, just trimmed and put in glass today. I'll post some picks when it's cured maybe 2 weeks
Back on September 28th, you said you were looking at a total loss, jklowan, so two ounces is a few less dispensary trips at least. Take what you learned this year and apply it next year, or think about growing indoors if that's an option for you. You can control just about everything with an indoor grow, whereas outdoors, you control very little.
Yeah I think I was just so bummed at that point. What is still the unknown is if it is decent quality product, I'll know soon enough :). Smells decent is some jars and has a weird earthy smell in others, so strange, but the buds are super sticky, I had glue like resin on my fingers from trimming the buds. Can't wait to try it and hoping for the best but am tempering my enthusiasm with what has happened all ready ( the only problem I did not face this year was pests/bugs, thank god). I have a renewed appreciation for the growers of my stash. Hopefully next year will be better, it will be better. I will grown more plants incase these problems crop up again and I will plan for shelter from rain and hopefully a sunnier location. I highly doubt that I will get 24" of rain in 3 months again :) but you never know
I cut my Purple Punch today. She was carried away in the flood and was lodged up against some propane tanks, all beat up. We rescued her in the canoe.
Due to horrible conditions and all sorts of blights and viruses, I did a full wet trim to make sure no nasties got through. I'm not even saving trimmings for hash. For the first time, on a friend's advice I disinfected the bud. There were a few light spots of rot, but really nothing crazy. I've been vigilant.
The buds are super dense, and I'll end up with maybe 6-8 oz of very high quality outdoor.
> I'll post some picks when it's cured maybe 2 weeks
jklowan, I wanted to mention that two week is just barely cured. I won't even sample mine until it's had a month in the jar. That's about how long it takes for the smoke get reasonably smooth, imo, and for the flavors to really come out. And of course, more time in the jar makes these things even better. Around the end of year holidays is when things really start to hit their prime.
Check this shit out. These are the G13 trichromes on 10/11, barely opaque, let alone amber. I don't know how much longer I can draw it out before it just rots. This shit is clearly mutant government weed and I'll probably become Toxic Avenger. The damn plant is well over 10' tall, which is crazy for Vermont.
I don't know Mike, the fucking thing is a mutant. She didn't start flowering in earnest until early September. How's that even possible if it's based on light?
When was the flood? Your girls survived some serious stress and that could have something to do with the wicked late flowering on that one. My stuff flowered later than usual this year too, at least in part because of the long, cool wet spring and early summer we had. I've always thought that duration of daylight is only one factor in triggering flowering, and that the development of the plant itself is another factor.
I have two of my plants quick trimmed and in jars so far. Eight and a half ounces off my Skywalker, about twelve ounces off the first of my Tahoes, and the second Tahoe, which I just chopped this morning, looks heavier than her big sister. Pretty darn good for a half-baked year that got off to a couple of rough starts.
I ordered some seeds the other day, and picked up a new lamp for getting my stuff started indoors next year. After burning up two crops of seedlings the last two years, I am done with LED lights, and opted for a four tube (T5) 96W Agrobrite unit for only $68 at Amazon.
Nice haul, Mike! And good purchase. If the girls get a good start in veg, they have a much better chance at surviving adversity when they go outdoors. Also, bigger harvests : ) and yes, stressors at any point in the plant's development, all the way to finishing flower, will slow growth. No living thing devolopes / grows when it's just trying to survive severe conditions.
Flood was early July. The Purple and Scooby both floated away, got seriously mangled, and definitely shocked. The G13 was intact, and that's the one that was super late. Turns out that it has an up to 83 day flowering cycle. I cut it on Friday because otherwise it would rot.
I ended up with 3.5 oz Scooby and 4.75 Purple Punch. It looks like 10-12 of G13. Pretty shitty, but seeing as how those 2 were the SS Minnow, I can't complain.
I did lose 1 Purple Punch in the flood. A fireman said he saw it floating down the street at 2 am when he was out in his kayak. I never found it. I also had 6 autos that had just sprouted, and those were trashed.
>>> did lose 1 Purple Punch in the flood. A fireman said he saw it floating down the street at 2 am when he was out in his kayak.
I'm sorry, Briank, for the loss, but that's a funny story to picture in my mind. And nice of him to let you know where it was on its journey. My, how the times have changed....lol
Gelato (Auto) 3.5 oz
Skywalker OG 8.5 oz
Tahoe Kush 1 12.0 oz
Tahoe Kush 2 12.5 oz
Total 36 oz
A fine year, despite the early setbacks. My new lamp arrived last week, as did a new batch of seeds. At this point, I'm planning to grow four plants next year, and will hopefully get them going early enough to mainline them: Blueberry Kush, Chemdawg, Durban Poison, and Tahoe Kush.
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Congrats, Mike. The cycle
Congrats, Mike. The cycle starts again.
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(((((((((((( Another Season )
(((((((((((( Another Season ))))))))))))))
Have fun, Mike!
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Good luck!
Good luck!
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Five beans out of six emerged
Five beans out of six emerged after five days, and the replacement for number six emerged today, so we're up and running. Can't wait to get past the ultra-fragile stage in a couple of weeks.
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My starts are all up:
My starts are all up:
G13, Gold Leaf, Dosido, Purple Punch, Scooby Snacks. Probably do 6 autoflowers, too.
It's way more than I'll ever need, so my goal is to keep them relatively small.
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Legal in Rhode Island, so I
Legal in Rhode Island, so I have 5 northern lights started, 1st timer doing 3 in pots 25 gallon flexible and 2 in ground. Hoping for some fun.
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No one growing this year?
No one growing this year? About 7 weeks in and I kept 3 plants that seem healthy even though we have had a ton of rain. Gave away 3 so all my plants are container based. Just started adding that kelp humbolt stuff this week, gonna top dress the containers with worm castings this weekend
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I got a late start again this
I got a late start again this year, due to my still not figuring out the proper distance for a cheap LED I picked up last year. My first run got stunted, so I replanted around the start of May using a buddy's T5 florescent light instead of the LED. Then once I got them moved outside, the freakishly long, late spring cold weather (which I love) didn't help either. Things are looking pretty good now, even if they're behind where I'd like them to be.
From left to right, they are a couple of Gelato autoflowers I started on June 1st, a Skywalker OG, and a couple of Tahoe Kushes.
And for next year, I'm picking up a good florescent panel for my starts.
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Good luck Mike. What you
Good luck Mike. What you using for bait in those traps?
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(No subject)
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> What you using for bait in
> What you using for bait in those traps?
Peanut butter. It's like crack for rodents, and sticks to the trigger plate really well.
A little background. We never had ground squirrels here until a few years ago. We have grey squirrels, but they seem to eat pine nuts and little else. Ground squirrels love green stuff, and are incredibly bold and destructive. I found one climbing up my kitchen window screen a couple of years ago trying to get to a bird feeder (that's since been retired). Freaked out my cat pretty good.
Then one of my neighbors put in a chicken coop a few years ago, and suddenly we had an explosion of ground squirrels. Year before last, I killed 12, last year 17, and this year 10 so far. I've got them fairly well controlled at this point, but there's still a couple I see from time to time. Lately I've taken to shooing them away with a Daisy P51 slingshot loaded with steel shot I recently acquired. I've hit them a few times, but mostly just let them know that this hostile territory for them. So far, it seems to be working, but it's an uneasy peace.
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I was going to do 7-8 full
I was going to do 7-8 full size and 8 autos this year, but that's just stupid, I've slimmed to to 4 photo and 4 auto.
Photo:
- G13, Scooby snacks, Purple Punch (x2)
Auto:
- Jack Herer (x2), Bubblegum, OG Kush
The photos are looking okay. We need more sun. Autos just got planted this weekend.
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So I am about 9 weeks in and
So I am about 9 weeks in and my plants are about 28" tall, not sure if that is average for the strain I'm growing "Northern Lights". They look beautiful but I thought I would have these monster plants on my patio and they are not that. I did this strain as I have smoked it in the past and really enjoyed it as well as it being toted as a easy plant to grow. The research says the plants average around 30" tall, is this true, anyone grown Northern lights before? I will try and post some pics when I can.
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jklowan, your plants will
jklowan, your plants will continue to gain height as they shift into flowering. They have a growth spurt (stretch) to make room for the buds to develop.
I haven't grown Northen Lights, but I'm reading it grows to 3-5 feet when grown indoors. If you're growing n 25 gallon pots outdoors, I'd say you can expect plants bigger than that (assuming everything else is good).
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Thanks Mike, I tried the tip
Thanks Mike, I tried the tip you posted in the 22 grow thread on trimming the top and it in fact now has two tops, wish I had done all 3, oh well next year :)
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I'm interested in how you
I'm interested in how you make out with the Blue Dream a strain I think I'll try next year
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Looking good, jklowan. One of
Looking good, jklowan. One of the effects of topping is it directs growth outward instead of upward, so your plants will be shorter than if you hadn't topped them and they'll get bushier too.
The first year I grew, I did a single topping and learned a lot from observing how the plant grew after that manipulation. What I've found since is that three toppings, which produces eight tops, is just about ideal. I did a fourth topping at one point for sixteen tops per plant, and found that to be a bit much to manage late in the season.
This year because of my late start I haven't done any topping, so each of my plants has a single top and more of a conical Christmas tree shape than a rounder bush shape. I just measured them and they're all just over three feet. I'm just starting to see pre-flowers on my photos, so I'm guessing they'll end up in the 4-5 foot range.
I also have one autoflower that started flowering after 4.5 weeks that's about two and a half feet tall. She's the first success (so far) I've had with autoflowers. They seem to be really finicky; I've had several seedlings just up and die early in the game, and a second auto I have going now (same strain, planting date, and growing conditions) is only about a foot tall and just starting to flower after 6 weeks.
The Blue Dream I grew last year turned out well. It's a nice balanced high, and the terps are strong and full-bodied.
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I can attest that this is the
^ I can attest that this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth! ;)
>The Blue Dream I grew last year turned out well. It's a nice balanced high, and the terps are strong and full-bodied
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A Tale of Two Autos
A Tale of Two Autos
This is the first time I've had any success with autoflowers. I started a few in the middle of last summer, but then a heat wave hit just after they emerged, and wiped them all out.
This year, I started these two autoflowers on June 2nd. They're the same strain (Gelato from Homegrown Cannabis Co.), and have had the exact same growing conditions, but their development is quite different as you can see.The tall one is 30 inches from the soil up, and the small one is 13.
The larger of the two started flowering two weeks ago, on July 7th, and the buds are starting to stack up nicely. I'm thinking it should yield an ounce or two. The smaller one started flowering earlier this week, and I'll be surprised if it yields more than about a quarter ounce of finished bud, but maybe an eighth is more realistic.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
plants appear to have just
plants appear to have just started started to flower
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My photos sifted to flowering
My photos shifted to flowering last week, and the tall auto above is stacking up nicely. She should be ready to harvest in about 4-5 weeks, I'm thinking.
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^Looking Good!!
^Looking Good!!
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^Looking Good!!
.
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Got the ladies moved into
Got the ladies moved into their final positions this morning. About one month to go on the autos, and just about two months for the photos.
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Definitely in flowering stage
Definitely in flowering stage, so cool to watch this unfold...
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Been moving em around to
Been moving em around to capture as much sun as possible as my backyard is mostly shade
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It's hard to tell for sure
It's hard to tell for sure because those pictures are kind of small, but the first two pics look like they might be males. The structures I've circled in red look like they could be pollen sacs forming.
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That would be a bummer, I;ll
That would be a bummer, I;ll try and get some better photo's
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Males are a bummer, but even
Males are a bummer, but even worse is if they pollinate any females you have.
Again, the pics above aren't very clear, so there's a chance I'm wrong about this.
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Looks like it is just one, I
Looks like it is just one, I have moved it away from the other 2 just in case, wait and see I guess. I suppose I will use it for seeds if it happens to be mail. They do look like seeds to me, the other 2 look different.
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They other 2 look like this,
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^That last pic might NOT be a
^That last pic might NOT be a male (or hermi) anyway
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
I was hoping you'd check back
I was hoping you'd check back here soon. The first pics are definitely males; the last one looks like it might be a female. Here's a couple of reference pics I found on the net of early flowering.
Female (distinguished by the white hairs, or stigmas):
Male:
The male flower develops into a sac, which will eventually open up and release pollen. You can collect the pollen before the sac busts and manually apply it to female flowers if you want to make seeds, but you really need to be super careful with the pollen. If the sacs bust on their own, the stuff can travel for miles in the air, which can be destructive for other outdoor grows in your area. You also need to be super careful handling pollen because you can get it on your hands or clothes and not know it and inadvertently pollinate females.
A lot of folks would tell you to cut down the male plants ASAP and bag them or burn them. Making your own seeds is kind of advanced, whereas buying seed is relatively inexpensive these days, even for feminized seeds.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
Thanks all, I guess in the
Thanks all, I guess in the grand scheme I'm good as 2 look like females, I will kill the male as much as that will hurt. I thought the male plant developed the seeds. Best to just kill em now and be safe. glad you all are here, thanks
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I guess what surprises me is
I guess what surprises me is I thought these were female seeds so I really hadn't paid that close attention to that part, just focused on fert and feeding to keep em healthy. Glad I noticed something was off before it was to late and you guys were able to confirm. I picked up these seeds from http://agseedco.com/ and after all the positive reviews hadn't thought that would be an issue. Hope the 2 fem that I have survive. So much stuff to learn. again thanks
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Male plant is chopped and
Male plant is chopped and bagged :(
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
I'm not familiar with that
I'm not familiar with that seed vendor, but their website says "Q: Are the seeds regular or feminized? All of the seeds in the Todd McCormick collection are regular seeds."
https://agseedco.com/blogs/news/faq?_pos=1&_sid=43eee9c51&_ss=r
And jklowan, I feel your pain. Seriously. Growing is a long term project and we get attached to our green babies, and it hurts like hell to get to August and have to kill them sometimes. You've got some healthy looking plants though, and I hope the two that remain are girls so you can enjoy the fruits of your labors.
One more thing about growing. It's all about learning, and taking what you learned this year and applying it next year, and over and over again.
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Thanks Mike, I'll be sure to
Thanks Mike, I'll be sure to pay closer attention next year. What sucks is I gave away 5 plants, should have held onto them all till the sex was determined. Live and learn. Gotta seach out some female indica seeds for next year
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My pleasure, dude. What I
My pleasure, dude. What I share I learned from others, and there will come a time when you can do the same.
Keep on Growing
https://archive.org/details/gd1985-06-14.145575.SBD.remaster.Miller.Noel...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Well, my original plan for
Well, my original plan for the year was 7 photos and 6 autos. I lowered that to 5 and 4, respectively. One photo was a mutant auto, so down to 4. Then came the flood. My autos all bit the dust. One photo literally floated away. A fireman said he saw her go by him it at 2 am as he was kayaking down the street. A wonderful news reporter helped me rescue 2 plants that were caught 8' up in an apple tree. So, it's just 3 now.
Scooby Snack took a beating in the flood but has battled back like a champ. She's well into flower and seems to need a lot of Cal/Mag right now. Purple Punch got a bit shocked, but it flowering and healthy. The there's G13, the government bud that seems impervious to anything you throw at it. She has no spots, no insects, and is over 8' tall right now. However, she's just leaving pre-flower and needs 9-11 weeks. She best be cold resistant too!
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>>Gotta seach out some female
>>Gotta seach out some female indica seeds for next year
Post here in February and I'll send you some. I've got Purple Punch, DosiDo, Good Leaf, and maybe 1 or 2 other indica dominant strains. I've found that the more pure indicas don't do well in Vermont because it gets way too humid. The buds never get super dense, they are prone to rot, and they're a pain to trim. That 70/30 is the sweet spot. Two years ago I got 39 oz off 2 Good Leaf alone, and it's a really nice buzz.
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Good to see you, BK. Sorry to
Good to see you, BK. Sorry to hear about your flood damage, but three plants should still fill some jars. At least that's what I'm telling myself after my reboot and late start,
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My weed made the news, and I
My weed made the news, and I heard the t was seen on TikTok in multiple states:
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I forgot to ask, BK. How the
I forgot to ask, BK. How the hell did two of your plants get eight feet up in an apple tree? Did they float up there?
My autoflower Gelato is about 6 weeks into flowering, and she's getting nice and chunky.
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Awesome offer BK, sorry bout
Awesome offer BK, sorry bout your plants' The 2 I have left are in fact females :) and seem to be flowering nicely, starting to smell wonderful in my backyard
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
>>How the hell did two of
>>How the hell did two of your plants get eight feet up in an apple tree? Did they float up there?
Exactly!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
>>How the hell did two of
>>How the hell did two of your plants get eight feet up in an apple tree? Did they float up there?
Exactly!
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Hilary soaked and still
Hilary soaked and still standing. We got 3 inches of rain, but the winds were light, and the buds aren't very big yet, so the branches didn't get weighed down.
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Keep up the good work guys,
Keep up the good work guys,
Getting humid again up here in New England, hope it doesn't last.
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I am worried about my plants.
I am worried about my plants. We have had a crazy amount of rain the last week. 4" on Sat and 2" on monday. The hairs on my buds have all turned from white to brownish and the wonderful smell is now gone. Hopefully I can salvage these 2 and don't get bud rot. Such a bummer to start with so many plants give some away and then realize I have some males and now bud rot.
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No good deed goes unpunished.
No good deed goes unpunished. Hope u get more and better than it looks now.
Yours are looking great Mike.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
JKlowan, from one Northeast
JKlowan, from one Northeast grower to another:
You'll be okay and will probably still have more than you need. A few things can help. The first is vigilance. At the first sign of rot, cut it out, as well as the surrounding area. You don't have to take off the entire bud. Sterilize you clippers.
Create airflow. It's fine to pull off fan leaves, or even cut off small branches that are hindering it.
Be vigilant with spraying, both for insects that carry the bacteria, and for fungus and bacteria. I use Grower's Ally and Flower Shield. Do what you can to make it a not so nice environment for all the nasties out there. I even gave a final spray of Neem this evening.
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The foreground is Scooby Snacks. She's stacking nicely and very crystally but I've been battling calcium deficiency, and hi h you can see on the leaves. Neither of the other 2 plants are deficient.
The Background is G13. She's about 10' tall and as you can see, hasn't yet started stacking. I have low hopes that she'll ripen in time because she just started full flowering maybe 2 weeks ago.
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Not sure I'll have more than
Not sure I'll have more than enough BK :) maybe a few months my current Northern lights plants/flowers
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moved them into my garage
moved them into my garage this morning, poured for 2 hrs and the sun came out so I moved em back on the patio and it just started down pouring again :)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I count on 8-18 oz per plant,
I count on 8-18 oz per plant, with an average of 12 throughout the years.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
What size pots, BK? Or are
What size pots, BK? Or are you doing them in free soil now?
My autoflower Gelato is getting near harvest, I think. She's 9.5 weeks into flower and only has scattered amber trichs on some leaves. I'm really looking forward to harvesting this one. She's sticky and real sweet-smelling, and even though she's foxtailed, the bud structure is interesting. Big, fat swollen calyxes that are pretty dense. I'm thinking I'll wet trim her to preserve the bud structure as much as possible. And I'm guessing she'll yield about 3 ounces of finished bud, which, for a 3-gallon pot isn't too shabby, I think.
Photos should be ready in about 3-4 weeks, I'm thinking. My year got off to rough, late start, but I'm looking at some fat buds that are stinking the place up real good.
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> The Background is G13. She
> The Background is G13. She's about 10' tall
A 10 foot indica? Are you sure you didn't get a hybrid, like a G13 Haze?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
It's 30% sativa, and that's
It's 30% sativa, and that's the pheno it's showing. It sure looks sativa in that pic. The others from the same seed lot showed indica.
I'm still in 15 gallon soft pots. Good thing I'm not in the soil or I would have lost them all in the flood.
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BK, yeah these plants are
BK, yeah these plants are smallish, grew them in 25gallon flexible pots so I was hoping they would be bigger, they will end up about 4ft each. My guess is I will end up with maybe 4-5 oz off these 2 plants we will see, I think I am 2-3 weeks out so maybe these buds will continue to fatten up and up the total yields, fingers crossed. I need to find more sun next year I think, Maybe do a ledge on my garage/Breezeway and water them from my office :).
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First chop of the season.
First chop of the season. Gelato auto top cola. It foxtailed, but I'm liking the chunkiness of it, and it's pretty dense.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: treat island
What's foxtailing?
What's foxtailing?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
NICE!!!!!
NICE!!!!!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
Foxtailing isn't a simple
Foxtailing isn't a simple thing to describe, judit. It's a genetic trait of some strains; in others it's a deformity of the bud structure due to stress, and especially excessive heat during flowering.
In either case, the buds don't develop in the typical circular/conical pattern; instead, the calyxes stack up on top of each other in narrow chains. But potency isn't effected, and neither are taste or aroma. You just don't get the kind of dense, uniform buds we've become accustomed to.
Here's a pic from the plant I chopped yesterday. Again, this is a Gelato autoflower, and from what I've been reading, it either has foxtailing in its genes, or it's prone to it. Plus, autoflowers are known to do some weird things, so this one will just have to be left to mystery.
We did have our one little heat wave of about 10 days right about the time it started flowering, so I don't know if I'm looking at nature or nurture, but it's sticky and stinky as all get out and I can't wait to sample it in a few weeks.
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That structure would look
That structure would look great in a floral arrangement.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
A lot of people don't see
A lot of people don't see foxtailing as desirable, but I think it's kinda cool. I don't usually wet trim, but I made an exception for this one because I want to keep as much of her bud structure intact as I can.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
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Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
So this year is officially a
So this year is officially a learning experience as with the last 3 weeks of rain here in the northeast my plants have bud rot :( Pretty much a total loss even though I was bringing them into the garage during the rain, just to wet here this season. Big time bummer, better luck next year. Hope you all get healthy crops and yeilds, I will be forced to continue my dispensary visits till next fall.
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Well that sucks big time. You
Well that sucks big time. You might want to consider a small greenhouse for next year. They complicate the game in some ways (e.g. heat management and the need for air circulation), but can also reduce your exposure to insects and the elements.
And speaking of insects, I found my first budworm damage of the year this morning. One brown leaf amidst the green. I had to lop off the affected top, which you always hate to do, but I don't want to be smoking caterpillar poop, and it was only 2-3 grams.
I harvested my Skywalker last Saturday and it should be headed for jars tomorrow. Then I'll take down one of my Tahoe Kushes, and the second one of those will come down next weekend. It's been a weird season here, but things are going to turn out okay, and that's a blessing.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Jay Sunshine
<<< I found my first budworm
<<< I found my first budworm damage of the year this morning. One brown leaf amidst the green. I had to lop off the affected top, which you always hate to do, but I don't want to be smoking caterpillar poop, and it was only 2-3 grams.>>
That's good that you removed it immediately! If you didn't in a few days your entire plant could have Botrytis due to that Caterpillar poop infecting the plant. This can seemingly happen overnight.
I know this because it happened to me last year with a fully grown Chocolate Thai plant that was destroyed in that way. I was in a funk for several days afterward and vowed 'never again!'
I'd say Botrytis is the single most dangerous element lurking when growing outdoors.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Yesterday evening I harvested
Yesterday evening I harvested Scooby, about a week before I would have liked. The sugar leaves were turning brown and dying, which is a recipe for rot. I figured better safe than sorry. Amazingly, and in spite of our crazy weather and the stress she faced, there was absolutely no rot.
She'll yield maybe 4-5 oz, which is low, but I can't complain. That girl floated away in the flood and we rescued her using a canoe, 6' up in an apple tree. She was mangled and on her side, and had lost half her soil. Any yield is a harvest miracle.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Here she is in the tree, in
Here she is in the tree, in the yellow circle:
This is right after the rescue. I had taken the news reporter, Katharine, in my canoe to do a live broadcast, and after we were done we were touring the carnage. She spotted it, and helped me rescue it. We then did a canoe rescue of Purple Punch. I talked to her last week and she said it was the highlight of her day, a positive among the crap. She took the pic.
For the sake of time I cheesed out and used the salad spinner trimmer. I normally dry trim, but those brown sugar leaves made me pivot. The entire plant took an hour to trim.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Just checked the trichromes
Just checked the trichromes on a table by lower bud. Much more amber than I thought. Probably could have gone another week, but I'll take it:
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
Doing a quick trim on my
Doing a quick trim on my Skywalker today before she goes in jars. Two Tahoes to go. One today, and the other next weekend.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ismelltoadsmoke
Another nice harvest, Mike!!
Another nice harvest, Mike!! Beautiful plants!! Never gets old ;-)
jklowan....nice job on you first grow! Getting anything to harvest on your first time out is pretty good, especially outdoors. Next year will be pounds... ;-)
Briank - lol....that picture of you smiling while standing in a flood with your rescued plant made me laugh a lot! That is badass and deserves a spot in High Times for perseverance. That story is amazing! I hope you and your family are well and recovering, High Times story headline:: Deadhead Loses Everything in Flood, Remains Jubilant Upon Recovering Herbage. ;)
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Thanks, joe. I sent you
Thanks, joe. I sent you something in the mail today (that's a switch, right?). And I've been meaning to ask you about your Colorado trip too. Sounds like you had yourself a nice little adventure.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ismelltoadsmoke
Thanks for the heads up, Mike
Thanks for the heads up, Mike. it was nice. 5 days. Left Saturday night at 8, drove all night and got to Denver around 7am Sunday. Lots of people out exercising. We drove through Vail and Aspen just to see stupid money, and we did. Stopped at Red Rocks, first time. It doubles as a public workout space when there are no acts. We found some folks at the top of the seats and joined them for a joint and coffee while we watched people work out.....lol.....birds of a feather. Mostly a sight seeing trip and found some good camping spots, also.. Tent camped in the White River National Forest for 2 nights at 9k elevation....did ok in the light air. That place is beautiful and silent. Just silent. Drove out to Rifle where a friend worked at a grow. Rifle is the furthest west I've ever been. Relatively cheap trip too; grocery stores, tents and bnb's.
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Sounds like a great trip, joe
Sounds like a great trip, joe. I was born in Colorado, but I only get out that way occasionally anymore.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
So I dried and saved what bud
So I dried and saved what bud I could, I'd say may 2 ozs. Super sticky, just trimmed and put in glass today. I'll post some picks when it's cured maybe 2 weeks
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Back on September 28th, you
Back on September 28th, you said you were looking at a total loss, jklowan, so two ounces is a few less dispensary trips at least. Take what you learned this year and apply it next year, or think about growing indoors if that's an option for you. You can control just about everything with an indoor grow, whereas outdoors, you control very little.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
Yeah I think I was just so
Yeah I think I was just so bummed at that point. What is still the unknown is if it is decent quality product, I'll know soon enough :). Smells decent is some jars and has a weird earthy smell in others, so strange, but the buds are super sticky, I had glue like resin on my fingers from trimming the buds. Can't wait to try it and hoping for the best but am tempering my enthusiasm with what has happened all ready ( the only problem I did not face this year was pests/bugs, thank god). I have a renewed appreciation for the growers of my stash. Hopefully next year will be better, it will be better. I will grown more plants incase these problems crop up again and I will plan for shelter from rain and hopefully a sunnier location. I highly doubt that I will get 24" of rain in 3 months again :) but you never know
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I cut my Purple Punch today.
I cut my Purple Punch today. She was carried away in the flood and was lodged up against some propane tanks, all beat up. We rescued her in the canoe.
Due to horrible conditions and all sorts of blights and viruses, I did a full wet trim to make sure no nasties got through. I'm not even saving trimmings for hash. For the first time, on a friend's advice I disinfected the bud. There were a few light spots of rot, but really nothing crazy. I've been vigilant.
The buds are super dense, and I'll end up with maybe 6-8 oz of very high quality outdoor.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
Nice looking bud BK, mine are
Nice looking bud BK, mine are all on the smaller side.
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Nice chunk, BK. That looks
Nice chunk, BK. That looks nice an dense too.
> I'll post some picks when it's cured maybe 2 weeks
jklowan, I wanted to mention that two week is just barely cured. I won't even sample mine until it's had a month in the jar. That's about how long it takes for the smoke get reasonably smooth, imo, and for the flavors to really come out. And of course, more time in the jar makes these things even better. Around the end of year holidays is when things really start to hit their prime.
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Thanks Mike, I let it go
Thanks Mike, I let it go awhile longer, no rush other than wanting to sample the taste and potency
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Check this shit out. These
Check this shit out. These are the G13 trichromes on 10/11, barely opaque, let alone amber. I don't know how much longer I can draw it out before it just rots. This shit is clearly mutant government weed and I'll probably become Toxic Avenger. The damn plant is well over 10' tall, which is crazy for Vermont.
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That's on a leaf too, where
That's on a leaf too, where the trichomes tend to ripen faster. Seems like a candidate for hash.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
I don't know Mike, the
I don't know Mike, the fucking thing is a mutant. She didn't start flowering in earnest until early September. How's that even possible if it's based on light?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
When was the flood? Your
When was the flood? Your girls survived some serious stress and that could have something to do with the wicked late flowering on that one. My stuff flowered later than usual this year too, at least in part because of the long, cool wet spring and early summer we had. I've always thought that duration of daylight is only one factor in triggering flowering, and that the development of the plant itself is another factor.
I have two of my plants quick trimmed and in jars so far. Eight and a half ounces off my Skywalker, about twelve ounces off the first of my Tahoes, and the second Tahoe, which I just chopped this morning, looks heavier than her big sister. Pretty darn good for a half-baked year that got off to a couple of rough starts.
I ordered some seeds the other day, and picked up a new lamp for getting my stuff started indoors next year. After burning up two crops of seedlings the last two years, I am done with LED lights, and opted for a four tube (T5) 96W Agrobrite unit for only $68 at Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049XGYWM
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ismelltoadsmoke
Nice haul, Mike! And good
Nice haul, Mike! And good purchase. If the girls get a good start in veg, they have a much better chance at surviving adversity when they go outdoors. Also, bigger harvests : ) and yes, stressors at any point in the plant's development, all the way to finishing flower, will slow growth. No living thing devolopes / grows when it's just trying to survive severe conditions.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank
Flood was early July. The
Flood was early July. The Purple and Scooby both floated away, got seriously mangled, and definitely shocked. The G13 was intact, and that's the one that was super late. Turns out that it has an up to 83 day flowering cycle. I cut it on Friday because otherwise it would rot.
I ended up with 3.5 oz Scooby and 4.75 Purple Punch. It looks like 10-12 of G13. Pretty shitty, but seeing as how those 2 were the SS Minnow, I can't complain.
I did lose 1 Purple Punch in the flood. A fireman said he saw it floating down the street at 2 am when he was out in his kayak. I never found it. I also had 6 autos that had just sprouted, and those were trashed.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ismelltoadsmoke
>>> did lose 1 Purple Punch
>>> did lose 1 Purple Punch in the flood. A fireman said he saw it floating down the street at 2 am when he was out in his kayak.
I'm sorry, Briank, for the loss, but that's a funny story to picture in my mind. And nice of him to let you know where it was on its journey. My, how the times have changed....lol
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind
Final Weigh-in
Final Weigh-in
Gelato (Auto) 3.5 oz
Skywalker OG 8.5 oz
Tahoe Kush 1 12.0 oz
Tahoe Kush 2 12.5 oz
Total 36 oz
A fine year, despite the early setbacks. My new lamp arrived last week, as did a new batch of seeds. At this point, I'm planning to grow four plants next year, and will hopefully get them going early enough to mainline them: Blueberry Kush, Chemdawg, Durban Poison, and Tahoe Kush.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ismelltoadsmoke
A fine year indeed. Nice haul
A fine year indeed. Nice haul, Mike.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: bweir I like cheese
WOW Mike nice yield, I would
WOW Mike nice yield, I would be over the moon with half that, hopefully next year